2JZGE to 2JZGTE Swap Questions

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Actually the oem Mkiv Supra Turbo typically dyno'd at about 320rwhp brand-new (US-spec)...which is about 375hp at the crank. Really.
Other critiques (just being honest here): This really is just a 'bpu' Supra, missing a downpipe, missing a BCC or FCD, and missing a boost controller. You'll need to add those two mods just to get it up to 'stage 1' - right now it's at about stage 0.5 . Sorry.
Hmmm - you did say this is an SZ->RZ conversion, right? Did they change out the whole engine to a 2jz-gte, or did they just add an aftermarket turbo kit? Either way, why isn't that mod listed? Did they put an oem TT ignitor and coil packs in? If not, how is that FCON driving the spark?
Also, what about the inferior n/a brake calipers and inferior n/a abs system...were those upgraded too, and if so why aren't those mods listed? {I do agree the coilovers on this one are awesome, but why is he still running the oem sway bars?}

Pardon me for sounding a bit harsh - I'm just trying to ensure you see the full picture before you spend any of your hard-earned money on either of these two Supras.

Remember, these are JDM spec Supras so, the '93 was rated at 280HP and we all know that was just because of the "gentlemens agreement". It had considerably more than that and this Supra, whilst lightly modified certainly produces more power than stock, as I said. No need to apologise dude, BPU it is - and with such power, I don't need to upgrade it anymore but, would like to Sorry, I'm not sure if it has an FCD - it may very well have one and the dealer forgot to mention it then again maybe it doesn't. Do coil overs fall under just BPU and not the + category?? The mods it has are great as is, I'm happy with them and surely will be able to take it from there (boost controller, down pipe, etc.) What it has now are expensive (especially the rims, HKS coil overs and other aesthetic upgrades) which saves me cash if I buy it. Another thing is, it is in immaculate condition, body, interior, and of course engine which carries so much weight when it comes to making a decision on a 2nd hand car and more so on an all out super car like the Supra. Seeing is believing...

Peace of mind...

Yes, the '95 is a conversion. I didn't list it because I already told you about it prior to the mods list. No, not just a bolt on turbo (NA-T), it's a full on 2JZ-GTE complete with (OEM) coil packs and ignitor hence it's now RZ grade save for the missing Getrag. Dealer gave me the full run down and also stated that it was professionally installed by a tuner who specialises in such tuning. He didn't say anything about the calipers being upgraded so, they could or could not have been. Again, it's JDM so, both these Supras would share the same brakes since Toyota only changed the JDM TT to big brakes after 1995. the racing brake pads would make a tangible difference though. Whether they're pre or post '95, Supra brakes have always been solidly good If need be, a brake upgrade is always possible. He didn't say anything about the ABS itself however, I think the SZ from '95 and up had been upgraded with better ABS than they had originally. He did say that a traction control system is in place and operates well. How do you know he's running the OEM sway bars??

No stress, I appreciate you trying to draw my attention to specifics that need attention in the '95 especially. Verdict is this: the '93 is a full on Supra RZ 6MT and I have no reservations about anything done to her. Nice, sensible upgrades tastefully done and it's in immaculate condition. My concern lies mainly with the '95 RZ 5MT because, as this discussion dictates, much attention had to be paid to specifics to get the car to stand on equal ground with the '93 RZ 6MT in all respects. Still a tough choice to make because, the '95 is done VERY well indeed. Trust me, I've seen many Supras and that one certainly stands out in the modification/conversion territory and is certainly worth deep consideration...those upgrades are worth a great deal of money and could save me a lot in that case.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Do coil overs fall under just BPU and not the + category??...

BPU mods are horsepower-related only. Suspension is a separate category of modifications.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...t's a full on 2JZ-GTE complete with (OEM) coil packs and ignitor hence it's now RZ grade save for the missing Getrag....

Pardon me for correcting you, but it's not really an RZ till the calipers, full ABS system, and differential are upgraded too. All of these SZ components are significantly inferior to the RZ/TT's.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Again, it's JDM so, both these Supras would share the same brakes since Toyota only changed the JDM TT to big brakes after 1995....

Hmmm....could you provide supporting documentation for that? US-spec Mkiv's had 4-piston front brake calipers since '93.5. I find it very strange that 'yota would have short-changed the JDM TT like that.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...the racing brake pads would make a tangible difference though....

1) What is a "racing" brake pad? Sounds pretty subjective if you ask me. 2) There's no substitute for a bigger rotor. 3) (And most importantanly) there's no substitute for a 4-piston brake caliper over a 2-piston.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Whether they're pre or post '95, Supra brakes have always been solidly good...

Disagree. For what it's worth, I would not roadrace a ~3500 lb. Mkiv Turbo with n/a brake calipers - I honestly believe it would be dangerous and stupid (even if the pads were hand-crafted by Zeus himself).

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...however, I think the SZ from '95 and up had been upgraded with better ABS than they had originally....

Again, please provide a link to support this. In the US, the '96 Mkiv TT was actually downgraded from quad independent ABS to triple independent ABS (rear wheels use same ABS valving post '95). To me it seems highly unlikely 'yota would downgrade the US ABS the same year they upgraded Japanese-spec ABS.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...How do you know he's running the OEM sway bars??...

How do you know he's not, if this wasn't in the list of modifications?

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Verdict is this: the '93 is a full on Supra RZ 6MT...

Disagree, imho.

I agree with you that the mods that are on both Supras were chosen with some degree of forethought, and may very well have been installed properly. In fact, a few of the mods are downright impressive (eg. the Ohlin shocks). HOWEVER: I do disagree with the subjective interpretation of the overall results, since the '93 won't be a full TT/RZ until the transmission AND differential, calipers, and ABS system have been addressed ... and the '95 won't be full BPU until it has a downpipe and some way to raise the oem boost level.

If I had to pick one of the two based on what you've posted, I'd go for the 93.5 TT 'almost-BPU'...assuming the prices are fair for both. With the '95 SZ->RZ partial conversion, you'd still be getting an n/a Mkiv with a transplanted engine, and too much $ put into the suspension for your application (just assuming about your application - please let us know what it is), imho.

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Hmmm....could you provide supporting documentation for that? US-spec Mkiv's had 4-piston front brake calipers since '93.5. I find it very strange that 'yota would have short-changed the JDM TT like that.1) What is a "racing" brake pad? Sounds pretty subjective if you ask me. 2) There's no substitute for a bigger rotor. 3) (And most importantanly) there's no substitute for a 4-piston brake caliper over a 2-piston.
Disagree. For what it's worth, I would not roadrace a ~3500 lb. Mkiv Turbo with n/a brake calipers -
Again, please provide a link to support this. In the US, the '96 Mkiv TT was actually downgraded from quad independent ABS to triple independent ABS (rear wheels use same ABS valving post '95). To me it seems highly unlikely 'yota would downgrade the US ABS the same year they upgraded Japanese-spec ABS.

How do you know he's not, if this wasn't in the list of modifications?
Disagree, imho.

I agree with you that the mods that are on both Supras were chosen with some degree of forethought, and may very well have been installed properly. In fact, a few of the mods are downright impressive (eg. the Ohlin shocks). HOWEVER: I do disagree with the subjective interpretation of the overall results, since the '93 won't be a full TT/RZ until the transmission AND differential, calipers, and ABS system have been addressed ... and the '95 won't be full BPU until it has a downpipe and some way to raise the oem boost level.

If I had to pick one of the two based on what you've posted, I'd go for the 93.5 TT 'almost-BPU'...assuming the prices are fair for both. With the '95 SZ->RZ partial conversion, you'd still be getting an n/a Mkiv with a transplanted engine, and too much $ put into the suspension for your application (just assuming about your application - please let us know what it is), imho.

To answer you about the brakes especially, the dealer told me many things about the cars. The '95 may very well have received a full brake upgrade to match the actual RZ's system. Unfortunately, I cannot see it personally since they're in Japan and there is a possibility that the dealer may have left out a few details. This is evident by his not mentioning certain parts that I could see from the pictures. You made an assumption about the sway bars. I didn't assume he upgraded them or not. I'd rather find that out from the dealer. No train smash there.

Aha, it seems you were misinformed about JDM Vs. USDM Supras, imho. The link you requested is here: www.mkiv.co.nz
The original Japanese TT mkiv Supra came out with the same brakes as the NA from May 1993 to May 1995. After May 1995 Toyota having realised this was a bad move decided to start using the BIG brakes that were always on the export model TT Mkiv from when it was first made. The move to big brakes on the Japanse Mkiv TT's was a piecemeal affair with only some TT's having the big brakes and only after May 1995.
The BIG brakes are an straight bolt-on although you will have to either bend the backing plates out of the way a bit or remove them entirely as I did. You can buy second-hand ones from the USA (where all the TT's have them) or even purchase new ones from Toyota as they were available on the post May 95 Japanese Mkiv's.

Your statement about "too much money put into the suspension" is far off. You can clearly see from the mod list that, the '95 Supra has APU engine upgrades. More power was clearly an emphasis with necessary attention being paid to the suspension which is very important for better handling of that extra power. As you can see by the mkiv.co.nz article above, '93 to '95 JDM Supras shared the same size brakes unlike the export spec.

Can you provide factual evidence of your statement about US Supras brakes being downgraded?

As for "racing pads". Yes, no substitute for bigger rotors and more pistons however, racing pads are not subjective. They genuinely improve braking performance. Better compounds = better grip onto the rotors which makes stopping easier and more precise. It'd rather have just a racing pads
upgrade than no brake upgrade at all. This of course is unnecessary on the original '93 RZ 6MT because, it's not pushing far more power than stock so it's brakes are definitely good enough.

Lol, I wonder if you guessed that my application is this:

To use the Supra to it's full potential in drag and circuit racing. It excels in both respects so, that's what I want to do. It's the best in power and handling from the Big Four Japanese supercars of the '90's, imho. The track (circuit racing) won't be very often but, I will definitely be on the track for drags more often than laps. My Supra and I will be king of the streets here which is where I'll be driving most often (more) upgrading can be done by me step by step. If I desire, the dealer is more than willing to mod either one further e.g. a boost controller for the RZ 6MT. Therefore, both these Supras cater for my needs. The beauty of aftermarket is this: as your needs change (evolve) you can mod your car to suit them. Supra is going to blow my mind - stock or modified

P.S. I would accept a stock standard Supra but, prefer if it's lightly to moderately modified like these two are. You must agree that Supra is exhilarating in both forms (moreso modded)? I notice you use the word "inferior" when talking about N/A's - the TT is certainly superior but, don't you think that's a bit harsh against the N/A?

BTW, where is JDM 93.5??? I need his feedback on the feel of an RZ thru 5MT box...

[warmkop]

I know for a fact the 5 speed box brakes.Know a other supra driver he bought a automatic and converted it to the 5 speed and broke the box twice.

There is not that many supras in SA.

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by warmkop

I know for a fact the 5 speed box brakes.Know a other supra driver he bought a automatic and converted it to the 5 speed and broke the box twice.

There is not that many supras in SA.

Hey howsit man? Didn't know there was another South African here I heard that the W58 doesn't stand up well to Twin Turbo power unless it's been built. I need to ask the dealer about this to confirm...

Where are you from?

[warmkop]

Im from witbank.
Any advise pwpanas gives you wil be good advise he knows alot obout supras.
Ill rather use the money you wil spend on making the 5speed stronger and just buy the 6 speed box.

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by warmkop

Im from witbank.
Any advise pwpanas gives you wil be good advise he knows alot obout supras.
Ill rather use the money you wil spend on making the 5speed stronger and just buy the 6 speed box.

I'm from Pretoria. Copy that dude. That's why I came to this thread because I knew I'd get a response from him. I don't intend to buy the 5MT, 6MT is what I've always been after...like you say, spending money to upgrade the 5 speed is unwise - rather get the 6MT and spend cash on upgrading engine, suspension, etc. It's just that, the Twin Turbo 5MT I'm talking about here has damn good modifications...

[pwpanas]

Thank you for the additional information about Japanese-spec Mkiv brakes. Much appreciated.

Overall note: My purpose is to help protect you against the sellers here, that *may have* overstated the degree to which they have upgraded these cars. I'm also trying to educate other readers of this forum who may end up in a similar situation. My purpose is not to, for example, win an argument against you. I'm only trying to point out some things you may not have considered, given the limited information that you have posted here.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

Your statement about "too much money put into the suspension" is far off....

Disagree. In fact, now that you've shared your application I'm more convinced than ever than Ohlin shocks are overkill beyond overkill - waaaaaay too much suspension for your needs. Please consider the following:

• The oem shocks have been successfully roadraced.
• Minor suspension upgrades (Eibach springs and KYB shocks) have been successfully roadraced.
• Modest coilovers (HKS or Ground Control or Tiens) have been very successfully roadraced.
• You only need to go to the level of Penske/Ohlin/Moton shocks if you're a hard-core advanced amateur or semi-pro.

For your drag/street/track application, something like Eibachs and KYBs would fit the bill perfectly. At this level of suspension upgrade, your Supra's performance would be superior, and you would take great advantage of its capabilities. I suspect you'd get many years of great use out of that set-up before you would need to upgrade.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...You can clearly see from the mod list that, the '95 Supra has APU engine upgrades. More power was clearly an emphasis with necessary attention being paid to the suspension which is very important for better handling of that extra power...

Too bad they didn't see fit to upgrade the brakes too...at least with US-spec rotors and calpers, if not something even better aftermarket (Brembo, AP Racing, Stoptech, Rotara, etc.). *shrug* With more power you don't just need to corner quicker, you need to stop quicker too.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...racing pads are not subjective. They genuinely improve braking performance. Better compounds = better grip onto the rotors which makes stopping easier and more precise. It'd rather have just a racing pads upgrade than no brake upgrade at all. This of course is unnecessary on the original '93 RZ 6MT because, it's not pushing far more power than stock so it's brakes are definitely good enough...

Disagree. The reason I say this is because there's no such thing as a "racing" brake pad. The term is far too general. Give me the specific company name that makes the pad (eg. TRD? Carbotech? EBC? Brembo? Project Mu? etc.), and an exact compound specification and then we would actually have something that we can evaluate. Without that, a "racing" brake pad can actually hurt performance. For example, some of the 'EBC greenstuff' pads actually perform worse than oem, but some might consider them to be "racing" pads. Folks usually buy 'EBC greenstuff' pads because they create less brake dust than the oem pads. In fact, the oem brake pads really are quite good for braking performance, even in an on-track roadracing scenario.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

You must agree that Supra is exhilarating in both forms (moreso modded)?...

Agree: the TT is exhilarating. The n/a is merely something nice to look at.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

I notice you use the word "inferior" when talking about N/A's - the TT is certainly superior but, don't you think that's a bit harsh against the N/A?...

Not in the least little bit. If the n/a version were never made, the Mkiv Supra Turbo would have achieved a much higher ranking as an unequivicably 'affordable mid '90s supercar'. The Mkiv n/a's components are, to me, not much better than what you'd find in (for example) a Solara...which is by no standard a 'sportscar'.

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Thank you for the additional information about Japanese-spec Mkiv brakes. Much appreciated.

Overall note: My purpose is to help protect you against the sellers here, that *may have* overstated the degree to which they have upgraded these cars. I'm also trying to educate other readers of this forum who may end up in a similar situation. My purpose is not to, for example, win an argument against you. I'm only trying to point out some things you may not have considered, given the limited information that you have posted here.

Disagree. In fact, now that you've shared your application I'm more convinced than ever than Ohlin shocks are overkill beyond overkill - waaaaaay too much suspension for your needs. Please consider the following:

• The oem shocks have been successfully roadraced.
• Minor suspension upgrades (Eibach springs and KYB shocks) have been successfully roadraced.
• Modest coilovers (HKS or Ground Control or Tiens) have been very successfully roadraced.
• You only need to go to the level of Penske/Ohlin/Moton shocks if you're a hard-core advanced amateur or semi-pro.

For your drag/street/track application, something like Eibachs and KYBs would fit the bill perfectly. At this level of suspension upgrade, your Supra's performance would be superior, and you would take great advantage of its capabilities. I suspect you'd get many years of great use out of that set-up before you would need to upgrade.
Too bad they didn't see fit to upgrade the brakes too...at least with US-spec rotors and calpers, if not something even better aftermarket (Brembo, AP Racing, Stoptech, Rotara, etc.). *shrug* With more power you don't just need to corner quicker, you need to stop quicker too.
Disagree. The reason I say this is because there's no such thing as a "racing" brake pad. The term is far too general. Give me the specific company name that makes the pad (eg. TRD? Carbotech? EBC? Brembo? Project Mu? etc.), and an exact compound specification and then we would actually have something that we can evaluate. Without that, a "racing" brake pad can actually hurt performance. For example, some of the 'EBC greenstuff' pads actually perform worse than oem, but some might consider them to be "racing" pads. Folks usually buy 'EBC greenstuff' pads because they create less brake dust than the oem pads. In fact, the oem brake pads really are quite good for braking performance, even in an on-track roadracing scenario.Agree: the TT is exhilarating. The n/a is merely something nice to look at.Not in the least little bit. If the n/a version were never made, the Mkiv Supra Turbo would have achieved a much higher ranking as an unequivicably 'affordable mid '90s supercar'. The Mkiv n/a's components are, to me, not much better than what you'd find in (for example) a Solara...which is by no standard a 'sportscar'.

Your name is Phil right? I took a look at your Supra on your MySpace page. She's hot man, hot! I see we have similar taste in styling - good set of rims, no radical body kit, more stock look with enhancements such as tasteful kits to add to the original beauty of the Supra. My pleasure to provide info

I know your aim dude, no need to point it out. I really appreciate your advice. That's exactly why I came here, to get advice from people who currently own Supras and can tell me from experience what's what when mods are concerned. Thanks.

Glad you mentioned that the OEM shocks have been successfully roadraced because, that's just my point. The Supra as a whole is such a well engineered car stock standard, there's no real need to change anything. Now, I can get an enhanced Supra like the '93 RZ 6MT which has overall great parts that really add to it's already impressive capabilities which is a no brainer.

Wow, are Ohlins really THAT good??? Please tell me more about them because, until I saw the '95 Supra, I never heard their name before, lol (seriously, I haven't).

My needs are completely taken care of by both Supras - you reckon the Ohlins are overkill right now and I agree however, doesn't that also mean that I score big in that department if I do in fact buy that Supra with Ohlins - when I eventually do become hardcore amateur, semi-pro, the car already has such suspension?? Right, I've asked the dealer more questions about brakes, transmission and so on and will report back when he tells me more. Aww yeah, the '93 has HKS suspension which has been very successfully road-raced - I love the sound of that

About the racing pads. I answered you based on what came to my mind when I heard about them - perhaps they are TRD and if they are, I read on TRD's website that their pads offer "higher initial bite" than standard. They weren't referring to the Supra I'm sure because the Supra, as you say has very good brakes and pads as is but, what I gather from them is that's what they term "racing pads". If you buy TRD pads specifically for the Supra then, I'm guessing the performance will be even better to say the least. Just me putting 2 and 2 together because of a lack of information as to what the car actually has...yeah, if he didn't do the rotors as well, it's a pity. At least he didn't neglect them as a whole though. I'll wait for more info from the dealer but, I don't think he'll be able to tell me the compound of the pads. Sorry.

Toyota built the Supra in the best way possible - both TT and N/A. They know best what suits each the best. I only look for Supras that have been logically upgraded in such a way that matches and/or exceeds the level of performance Toyota achieved originally. The TT came with a 6 speed Getrag for a reason, conversely, the N/A came with a 5 speed also, for a reason - I agree with you fully on that one. I must say that I am highly impressed by the quality of Supras I have found in it's homeland. Superb tuning and pristine condition would make any hardcore fan happy.

What do you understand by a racing blow off valve?? they didn't give me a brand but said that the '93 RZ has a racing blow off valve - it doesn't look like an HKS or Blitz in terms of size but, it's definitely a BOV. How do you think it will perform (sound as well)? It's mounted where the original BOV is/was if that helps...

About the Supra being exhilarating - I actually meant both forms as in standard TT or modded I can't wait for this car man...years I've longed for it and now, it's finally in my midst - I can't describe that feeling to you in words...

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

Your name is Phil right?...

Yes.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...I took a look at your Supra on your MySpace page. She's hot man, hot!...

Thank you!

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Wow, are Ohlins really THAT good???...

Absolutely, but I'll let you decide. For starters, take a look at the price:
http://www.ohlinsusa.com/us/index.ph...road-and-track

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...My needs are completely taken care of by both Supras - you reckon the Ohlins are overkill right now and I agree however, doesn't that also mean that I score big in that department if I do in fact buy that Supra with Ohlins - when I eventually do become hardcore amateur, semi-pro, the car already has such suspension?? Right, I've asked the dealer more questions about brakes, transmission and so on and will report back when he tells me more. Aww yeah, the '93 has HKS suspension which has been very successfully road-raced - I love the sound of that ...

Agree. I'm not saying it's bad to have too much suspension (except perhaps in the area of maintenace costs). However, I am saying the upgrades on that car are a bit unbalanced...too much suspension and not enough brakes. It's just an overall comment about the choices made for the specific combination of modifications. Like perhaps a project abandoned partway through? From the perspective of a project car or a starting point it's just fine. From the perspective of someone that wants to take the car out and seriously roadrace day 1, perhaps it's not optimal. *shrug*

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...About the racing pads. I answered you based on what came to my mind when I heard about them - perhaps they are TRD and if they are, I read on TRD's website that their pads offer "higher initial bite" than standard. They weren't referring to the Supra I'm sure because the Supra, as you say has very good brakes and pads as is but, what I gather from them is that's what they term "racing pads". If you buy TRD pads specifically for the Supra then, I'm guessing the performance will be even better to say the least. Just me putting 2 and 2 together because of a lack of information as to what the car actually has...yeah, if he didn't do the rotors as well, it's a pity...

The oem rotors are in fact better than aftermarket slotted and/or cross-drilled for pure braking power. However, there's no way to upgrade the rotor diameter without also changing the calipers. That's the level of brake upgrade that should have been done to match that suspension, imho.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...What do you understand by a racing blow off valve?? they didn't give me a brand but said that the '93 RZ has a racing blow off valve - it doesn't look like an HKS or Blitz in terms of size but, it's definitely a BOV. How do you think it will perform (sound as well)? It's mounted where the original BOV is/was if that helps......

There are a very few areas where the Toyota let us down with the oem components, but the oem BOV is one of them. Inside it is just cheap plastic, and with the heat generated in the 2jz-gte engine bay the oem bov has a limited life span before it starts leaking. Pretty much any/every BOV will perform better than stock, especially in the reliability area. Of course, if you upgrade to a large single turbo, you'll also need larger size of BOV(s) to vent a greater volume of air during a blow-off.
If you're running the oem MAF, be sure to get a BOV that has an output routed back to the post-maf intake tube (as it is in the oem configuration). If you vent the BOV to atmosphere (again, with a MAF), you'll run overly-rich every time the BOV vents, which can stall the car and/or foul the plugs and/or wash down the cylinder walls.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...I can't wait for this car man...years I've longed for it and now, it's finally in my midst - I can't describe that feeling to you in words...

I do wish you the best of luck in obtaining a Supra. Please keep us informed on your journey!