Stock Block

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...And I am waiting for you to admit you debacled yourself. You just admitted it was attainable with the help of something so cheap as nitrous. I was waiting for you to notice your own flaw. This is the second time you have done this to yourself. I hope this isnt a habbit for you.

I mentioned NO2 MUCH earlier in this debate, and specifically excluded it from the conditions. Sorry for you that you didn't notice it sooner. You also said in your post that stated the conditions of this debate that you'd make the power with the stock twins. You never mentioned anything about nos.

Also, why didn't your earlier (flawed) calculations here include NO2? LOL!

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...And I am waiting for you to admit you debacled yourself. You just admitted it was attainable with the help of something so cheap as nitrous. I was waiting for you to notice your own flaw. This is the second time you have done this to yourself. I hope this isnt a habbit for you.

I mentioned NO2 MUCH earlier in this debate, and specifically excluded it from the conditions. Sorry for you that you didn't notice it sooner. You also said in your post that stated the conditions of this debate that you'd make the power with the stock twins. You never mentioned anything about nos.

Also, why didn't your earlier (flawed) calculations here include NO2? LOL!

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Dude, no one ever said anything about cost aspects. I said it is possible to get that much. Even you should agree that it is possible. And if I had 25grand to spend on a motor and I had to use the stock twins. All I would do is max boost, racing fuel, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, standalone engine management, bore the engine out w/ stroker kit...

WHOA! HOLD ON THERE BUCKO! You said STOCK BLOCK. If it's bored out w/stroker kit, it's NOT STOCK anymore!!!

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...exedy multi disc clutch, lightened flywheel with carbon pads, trd diff, better IC and piping, intercooler chiller kit, and 200shot of nitrous(wet kit)...

WRONG AGAIN. You wouldn't be making the power with the stock twins in that build. You'd be making it with the NOS. You said nothing about NOS in your earlier posts, and Evilfurby didn't ask about making power with NOS - he asked about making it with the stock twins.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Theres your 650rwhp. Stock engine is 320 just the nitrous alone bumps it up to 520(and thats a maybe 1000dollar mod depending on where you get the kit from) I got 24 grand left. Any questions?...

No questions, but you broke the conditions you set up in post #7 of this thread. As a reminder, you said exactly this: "I am talking about just a stock bottom end(as I have repeatedly said stock block) with the stock turbos. And I meant to say 650rwhp. With a better grind cams, angle cut valves, and a P&P head you can easily squeeze out 650rwhp." Instead, you came up with a build that makes power using a stroker kit & nos. LOL.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...And your still wrong. As I have already maped it out for you...

Sure you made the power, but not with the stock block and the stock twins. LOL!

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...I said the stock motor yes. Engine management, nitrous, and more boost I never said you couldnt use(show me where I said word for word that you couldnt use these things). With these things alone you can get that amount when done right. However, then you claimed that even if I could do anythign to the motor the stock twins wouldnt handle it. Which again is not true...

STOCK BLOCK = NO STROKER KIT. DUH.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Bingo now someone is thinking. I never said once you couldnt use nitrous or any other means of management. Just stock block and stock twins. Anything else is a go. Now you are coming to reality. I see the dice is turning in my favor...

Let's forget stock twins. Why not take them off completely, and spray a 450 shot? LOL. Again, Evilfurby wasn't talking about making power with nos, and neither were you...till now.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...As you have already losed this debate about a mk4. You have already admitted that 650rwhp is attainable on the stock motor with stock twins with the help of nitrous which is a 1000dollar mod. Well what happened with the rest of the 24grand? I never said once you couldnt use nitrous. Thank you for debating sir...

You're welcome. I hope you enjoyed loosing when you broke the conditions of this debate.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...The funny thing is while I am not qualified to answer these questions you have just debacled yourself in your own debate. First you say "you need a unattainable amount of money to make 650rwhp on the stock block and stock twins" then you say "o but its attainable with nitrous which is a 1000dollar mod." Maybe you will take my advice and chose your battles much more wisely.

I'm glad that YOU finally admit you can't make 650rwhp with the stock twins alone. At least the others reading this thread know the truth NOW.

[SKILMATIC]

WHOA! HOLD ON THERE BUCKO! You said STOCK BLOCK. If it's bored out w/stroker kit, it's NOT STOCK anymore!!!

HEY YOU TOLD ME I have 25grand and I could use it how I want to all I have to do is keep the stock twins. But ok lets say I cant do anyhting to the motor which is what I said. Thats fine I still can make 650rwhp on the stock block and stock twins.

For any reasonable amount of $, you're not going to make 650rwhp using the stock twins alone. In fact, I'll allow you an unreasonable amound of $. You'll never do it even if you spend $25,000.00 on the problem (not counting the cost of the car itself). Is that a reasonable budget, iyo?

Does that post look familiar? Those are your words for the 25grand game. You said just stock twins not stock motor.

You wouldn't be making the power with the stock twins in that build. You'd be making it with the NOS. You said nothing about NOS in your earlier posts, and Evilfurby didn't ask about making power with NOS - he asked about making it with the stock twins.

It doesnt matter whethor or not I said it in my earlier posts or not. I said you can make 650rwhp on the stock block and stock twins did I not? I never gave any restriction on what you can and cant do. Eveything else is a go. I never said the turbos alone were to be the ones making that power. So please admit you were wrong in every aspect of this debate. You falied to realize there was Nitrous just like you failed to realize your suposed mk4 doesnt come with ct26's stock.

No questions, but you broke the conditions you set up in post #7 of this thread. You made the power using a stroker kit & nos...not the stock block and stock twins.

I know I was playing by the rules of your game. But if you want to change them then thats your falacy.

Sure you made the power, but not with the stock block and the stock twins. LOL!

Yes I did. take out the bore and stroker kit and you still can attain 650rwhp. Nitrous alone is 520. Max the boost you get at least another 100hp then standalone engine management, race gas, better fuel management, better drivetrain you could get more then 650rwhp. So again please admit you were wrong. Any questions? Or do I need to edumacate you on the aspects of nitrous and engine management too?

STOCK BLOCK = NO STROKER KIT. DUH.

I was only playing by your rules. But I would rather play by mine which is the original discussion. Which means we must keep the stock block and stock twins. You wanted to let me do anyhting I wanted to the motor as long as I kept the stock twins and I said if you say so. hehehe

Let's forget stock twins. Why not take them off completely, and spray a 450 shot? LOL. Again, Evilfurby wasn't talking about making power with nos, and neither were you...till now.

Because if you spray a 450shot on a stock block even though its forged you will detonate and/or melt your rings. Ever seen a motor that runs on just nitromethane(which has a lower combustible temperature)?

You're welcome. I hope you enjoyed loosing when you broke the conditions of this debate.

You losed both ways. Whether we keep the stock block or not I still win. Any questions?

I'm glad that YOU finally admit you can't make 650rwhp with the stock twins alone. At least the others reading this thread know the truth NOW.

Yes you can, stock motor and stock twins you can make 650rwhp. Thank you for losing this debate as you have from the start. Everyone knows you can add things onto the motor. I never said leave the motor completely stock. Everyone has the common sense to know the implementation of nitrous in this case would be needed. But I guess it took you 3 pages of debate to realize such a thing.

[SKILMATIC]

I mentioned NO2 MUCH earlier in this debate, and specifically excluded it from the conditions. Sorry for you that you didn't notice it sooner. You also said in your post that stated the conditions of this debate that you'd make the power with the stock twins. You never mentioned anything about nos.

Also, why didn't your earlier (flawed) calculations here include NO2? LOL!

If you mentioned it earlier than I am sorry I didnt awknowledge that. However, the fact still remains that on the stock block and stock twins a 650rwhp goal is attainable.

[suprra_girl]

when you get 650rwhp on the stock twins please do post up your dyno sheet and pics of ur car
i'd like to see it

and now this thread is also


LOCKED!

[TONY!]

I really have to fix certain things in this thread.
I always wanted to but then Suprra_Girl closed it and I wanted to get her OK before opening it.
Most of this thread was written just before I was modded.
Some clarifications should be stated so that this forum has some credibility to its members.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...The stock block in my experience has been able to hold over 800whp fairly easily. ...The stock turbos can produce an easy 650whp...

Experience as in you had an 800whp Supra?
(Because that is how it sounds like to me--like you are saying you had one.)

Let me get back to you on this. I remember reading somewhere but I forget where. Hold on let me research this. I know I seen this done before.

Please find sources of info--preferable reliable info--before posting.
That way you can back your claim up and if you are found to be wrong, the blame gets shifted to that source.
I highly doubt there was ever such a source from which you claim exists where they said you could make that much power from the stock twins.

Actually let me do the math on this...
...The stock boost on the ct26's is usually around 7-11.5(ea). Now the ct26's are much like a conventional t3/t4. The ct26 is capable of putting out 20psi max. Now each psi equals about 7-10hp. If we up the boost from the stock 10psi on each turbo to say 20psi on each turbo thats 40 psi total on a 2jz NA puts out around 240. So take 40multiply that by 10 you get 400hp add the stock motors hp which is 240 and you get around 640hp. The proof is in the math. Of course engine management/fuel management will be needed...Now if I can only find that dam link...

First, the 2JZ-GTTE uses two CT12b's, not CT26's.
Second, it may be true that at a certain range, each addition PSI will produce 10 HP, but that equation is not a linear equation. Yes, I am sure there is a mathematical formula for it, but implying that the equation is linear, is very incorrect math.

...Remember a turbo mixes exhaust gases into the ambient air form the intake charge. So oxygen isnt a problem...

A turbo pressurizes the incoming air into the cylinder. There is no connection between the intake and the exhaust at all. The turbine drives that attached shaft that carries the compressor wheel and that is how they are related/connected in their function.

...Again I dont need luck when its been done before with pure mathematics. Thats all engines are. Engines were built on the concept of mathematics. And so is every turbo system or blower system out there...

But the mathematics that are used are not solely linear equations. If it were true, then compressor maps would have no curve. Also there are power curves and torque curves--the mathematical equation for determining mathematically what power output you will have which would correspond to plotting points on a power curve or torque curve are so complex that I would not dare even think that I could fathom it.

...I tell you what when I find that article I would appreciate it if you would renounce all your mubo jumbo...

Have you found it?

...Why do you think when you install a turbo on any car your intake charge temp increases? If the 2 are completely dissasociated form each other then your intake temp should remain the same but this is not true. The increase in temp is generated form the mixed gases coming from your exhaust. Maybe you shoudl read your own link a little better...

A turbo engine’s intake air's temperature increases primarily because as you compress a gas, you increase its temperature; conversely, as you decrease pressure, you decrease temperature. This is why air conditioners have compressors and a basic reason why they work, due to increasing and decreasing pressure. Depressurized gas [meaning refrigerant] goes to the cabin, while pressurized gas [meaning refrigerant] goes through a condenser (which is a sort of radiator/intercooler).

Here is a quote from me that I made on another Supra forum:

Originally Posted by TONY!

Most of the heat that an intercooler removes is not from coming from the turbo, but from the air being compressed. When you compress air, you create heat.
If you ever take a spray can that is under pressure and hold it upside down and spray it to release the pressure, the can will have frost on it during a 65F warm day. You can also hold your finger under an air compressor’s release valve and see that the air coming out will be colder than the ambient air. This is the inverse of what happens with a turbo compressing and pressurizing air. When you compress air you create heat and so the inverse will be that when you depressurize air you will lose heat...

...it still mixes the gases together. Hx gases as you should know are much better combustibles than o2...

So untrue, that I just don’t know where to start. After the fuel and oxygen are ignited, they lose their energy. Their energy gets translated into heat energy and then to mechanical energy. When energy is extracted from something, it would NOT be more combustible the second time around. Just like burning a log. You can't burn it twice, because it has already lost its energy.


That clears up the misinformation segment on this thread to a great degree.


This used to be my sig on another forum--I really hope that it is not necessary in the future.

[TONY!]

While you are having a good time on this forum, I spent many hours in trying to fix this thread and the repercussions it has made. I don't think that is fair to me at all! People need to be accountable for what they do and what misinformation they post.

On some forums they would have banned you for all this inaccurate information without a good bye. If you don’t like the way I have handled it, then try your luck on other sites with this much misinformation and see how far you get...you will look back and thank me for being so lenient.

Please admit to being wrong when you find yourself wrong.
Don’t go on forever with many invalid excuses as to why you made false claims—that will save us (members and moderators) lots of time!

Some other issues that are on this thread is name calling. I don’t want to see any name calling in arguments because it only creates more problems.

There is even more that I can say but I have been stupid enough to spend this much time on it already.

In the future, I will definitely not spend as much time as I have on this case, but use this case as an example. (I often recycle my posts [as I even did in this case from quoting myself from another site]).


Let's learn and move on,
TM

EDIT:

THREAD IS OPEN
I am leaving this open IF anyone has any true and useful information to add in--and can do it in a civil manner.
I am not opening it to read invalid excuses for every piece of misinfo to save face.
I don't expect people to always be right.
We are all wrong once in a while.
Peopel should, however, have a grasp of what they do and what they don't know, and not to pretend that they know things they don't.