Stock Block

[TRAFIK]

I don’t really want to get into this hp battle (although very informational).
But I really don’t see the stock twins pushing that much psi and rwhp. It’s not impossible but who the hell would want to stress the car so much? Pushing the stock tt limits it’s not good even with bpu's. I would probably start thinking of single or bigger tt upgrade around 500. Just my $0.02



Just for my info…anybody who is running stock twins,



How much are you pushing?

What is your limit? Where would you say “No More”.

[SKILMATIC]

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

I don’t really want to get into this hp battle (although very informational).
But I really don’t see the stock twins pushing that much psi and rwhp. It’s not impossible but who the hell would want to stress the car so much? Pushing the stock tt limits it’s not good even with bpu's. I would probably start thinking of single or bigger tt upgrade around 500. Just my $0.02



Just for my info…anybody who is running stock twins,



How much are you pushing?

What is your limit? Where would you say “No More”.

As always I agree with you traffic. All I said was it is possible. Although i personally would just go to a big single turbo application I am just stating the possibilities.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

As always I agree with you traffic. All I said was it is possible. Although i personally would just go to a big single turbo application I am just stating the possibilities.

You're not stating possibilities, you're stating idiocies.

[SKILMATIC]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

You're not stating possibilities, you're stating idiocies.

Really? So your saying THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING hasnt happened yet you are automatically going to rule that out as never being possible? Gee I am so glad Einstein didnt have the same views you do when thinking about constructing the a-bomb. Furthermore, I am so glad every single inventor didnt have the same pessimistic views as you do. The supra has always been gravely underestimated in everything it does. And every single time when someone puts their mind to bringing out the best in the supra they have exceeded everyones expectations. You should have a little more respect for your supra as you claim you own. IMHO, someone that owns a supra would never have the pessimistic views such as yourself.

Omg not you too!? It's not possible! Really! Not even close! Hundreds of people have invested thousands of $ and literally years of time. There's just no way to get them to push more than very close to 500rwhp. In fact just getting to about 450rwhp (bpu++++) already costs at least a thousand $ (probably a lot more), AND you have to have a low-mileage Supra to get even that high.

BWAHAHA, what does mileage have to do with anything? I am assuming you are talking about mileage on the car not the engine. Because you said low mileage supra and not the motor. Well hate to break it to you mileage has nothing to do with power unless its on the motor. You could have a supra with 300,000original miles on it and just installed a rebuilt 2jz in it and it will and can be very powerful.

Upon what data do you base your statement?

Likewise.

It really doesn't "stress the car" at all. With a mid-size or large single turbo and race fuel, an Mkiv Supra can handle 650rwhp without any problem.

You mean to tell me that 650whp has the same stress tensions as having 400whp? Again, your brilliance amazes me. Now yes granted IMHO the motor can handle alot of power with little to no problems, but it is a given fact that the more power you put out the more stress the motor goes under.

I agree that pushing the oem twins to their limit of 450+rwhp will be hard on them. Getting them past 500rwhp is near-impossible; getting them to 650rwhp is both impossible and rediculous.

Not impossible. Improbable is the correct term. Nothing is impossible in this genre.

When I was running stock twins, I made about 400rwhp before I went to a single turbo, and that was full bpu+, with about 20 or 21psi of boost and race fuel. It doesn't matter where I would say "No More", because the stock twins do it for you. They say "No More" at about 25psi of boost and about 475rwhp at average-best, assuming your 2jz-gte is in very good condition and your turbos are low-mileage (ideally, less than 25,000 miles on them).

You SURE YOU OWN A MK4?

[TONY!]

For the sake of the forum, I am going to lock this up.

Very good points were made and I think that the thread starter's original questions was pretty much taken care of.

If anyone has any questions, comments, or concerns; shoot me a PM.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Really? So your saying THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING hasnt happened yet you are automatically going to rule that out as never being possible? Gee I am so glad Einstein didnt have the same views you do when thinking about constructing the a-bomb. Furthermore, I am so glad every single inventor didnt have the same pessimistic views as you do. The supra has always been gravely underestimated in everything it does. And every single time when someone puts their mind to bringing out the best in the supra they have exceeded everyones expectations. You should have a little more respect for your supra as you claim you own. IMHO, someone that owns a supra would never have the pessimistic views such as yourself...

It's not pessimistic, it's realistic. The inventor of the a-bomb wasn't on the same type of budget as someone like Evilfurby looking at maxing out the stock block, stock twins horsepower of a used Supra that he's planning to buy. Something tells me the US Government had just a few more resources to throw at a-bomb development lol. For any reasonable amount of $, you're not going to make 650rwhp using the stock twins alone. In fact, I'll allow you an unreasonable amound of $. You'll never do it even if you spend $25,000.00 on the problem (not counting the cost of the car itself). Is that a reasonable budget, iyo?

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

... what does mileage have to do with anything? I am assuming you are talking about mileage on the car not the engine. Because you said low mileage supra and not the motor. Well hate to break it to you mileage has nothing to do with power unless its on the motor. You could have a supra with 300,000original miles on it and just installed a rebuilt 2jz in it and it will and can be very powerful...

I'm talking about mileage on the turbos. They just don't boost as well if they've got a lot of mileage on them.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Likewise...

I've already told you. I base my data on my own work on my own MK4, my work on other Mk4's, as well as the work of the dozens and dozens of other Mk4 owners that have worked on this problem and posted their results. Now, upon what do you base your BS 650rwhp on stock block & stock twins figure? Faulty mathematics? Lol.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...You mean to tell me that 650whp has the same stress tensions as having 400whp? Again, your brilliance amazes me. Now yes granted IMHO the motor can handle alot of power with little to no problems, but it is a given fact that the more power you put out the more stress the motor goes under...

No one is arguing with you there, but let's get back to the topic - is your assertion still that you can feasibly make 650rwhp with a stock 2jz-gte block and it's stock twin turbos?

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Not impossible. Improbable is the correct term. Nothing is impossible in this genre...

Prove it then! This isn't a matter of odds like rolling some dice at Las Vegas. This is a matter of how much air those two little 2jz-gte oem twins can pump. They simply can't pump enough air to produce that much horsepower. It's beyond the capability of those devices, therefore it's not improbable, it's literally impossible.

Now if we go beyond the conditions of your earlier posts and add a big single turbo or a big shot of NO2+fuel to make the horsepower, then of course it can be done. But again, on oem twins and oem block alone, there's just no way.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...You SURE YOU OWN A MK4?

Yes. I'm also sure that YOU shouldn't be posting on MK4 threads, because you're completely uninformed and unqualified to answer any questions about it.

[SKILMATIC]

It's not pessimistic, it's realistic. The inventor of the a-bomb wasn't on the same type of budget as someone like Evilfurby looking at maxing out the stock block, stock twins horsepower of a used Supra that he's planning to buy. For any reasonable amount of $, you're not going to make 650rwhp using the stock twins alone. In fact, I'll allow you an unreasonable amound of $. You'll never do it even if you spend $25,000.00 on the problem (not counting the cost of the car itself). Is that a reasonable budget, iyo?

Dude, no one ever said anything about cost aspects. I said it is possible to get that much. Even you should agree that it is possible. And if I had 25grand to spend on a motor and I had to use the stock twins. All I would do is max boost, racing fuel, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, standalone engine management, bore the engine out w/ stroker kit, exedy multi disc clutch, lightened flywheel with carbon pads, trd diff, better IC and piping, intercooler chiller kit, and 200shot of nitrous(wet kit). Theres your 650rwhp. Stock engine is 320 just the nitrous alone bumps it up to 520(and thats a maybe 1000dollar mod depending on where you get the kit from) I got 24 grand left. Any questions?

I'm talking about mileage on the turbos. They just don't boost as well if they've got a lot of mileage on them.

O ok thanks for clarifying that.

I've already told you. I base my data on my own work on my own MK4, my work on other Mk4's, as well as the work of the dozens and dozens of other Mk4 owners that have worked on this problem and posted their results. Now, upon what do you base your BS 650rwhp on stock block & stock twins figure? Faulty mathematics? Lol.

And your still wrong. As I have already maped it out for you.

No one is arguing with you there, but let's get back to the topic - is your assertion still that you can feasibly make 650rwhp with a stock 2jz-gte block and it's stock twin turbos?

I said the stock motor yes. Engine management, nitrous, and more boost I never said you couldnt use(show me where I said word for word that you couldnt use these things). With these things alone you can get that amount when done right. However, then you claimed that even if I could do anythign to the motor the stock twins wouldnt handle it. Which again is not true.

Prove it then! This isn't a matter of odds like rolling some dice at Las Vegas. This is a matter of how much air those two little 2jz-gte oem twins can pump. They simply can't pump enough air to produce that much horsepower. It's beyond the capability of those devices, therefore it's not improbable, it's literally impossible.

Now if we go beyond the conditions of your earlier posts and add a big single turbo or a big shot of NO2+fuel to make the horsepower, then of course it can be done. But again, on oem twins and oem block alone, there's just no way.

Bingo now someone is thinking. I never said once you couldnt use nitrous or any other means of management. Just stock block and stock twins. Anything else is a go. Now you are coming to reality. I see the dice is turning in my favor.

Yes. I'm also sure that YOU shouldn't be posting on MK4 threads, because you're completely uninformed and unqualified to answer any questions about it.

As you have already losed this debate about a mk4. You have already admitted that 650rwhp is attainable on the stock motor with stock twins with the help of nitrous which is a 1000dollar mod. Well what happened with the rest of the 24grand? I never said once you couldnt use nitrous. Thank you for debating sir. You did ok. Not bad for a newbie.

The funny thing is while I am not qualified to answer these questions you have just debacled yourself in your own debate. First you say "you need a unattainable amount of money to make 650rwhp on the stock block and stock twins" then you say "o but its attainable with nitrous which is a 1000dollar mod." Maybe you will take my advice and chose your battles much more wisely.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Dude, no one ever said anything about cost aspects. I said it is possible to get that much. Even you should agree that it is possible. And if I had 25grand to spend on a motor and I had to use the stock twins. All I would do is max boost, racing fuel, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, standalone engine management, bore the engine out w/ stroker kit...

WHOA! HOLD ON THERE BUCKO! You said STOCK BLOCK. If it's bored out w/stroker kit, it's NOT STOCK anymore!!!

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...exedy multi disc clutch, lightened flywheel with carbon pads, trd diff, better IC and piping, intercooler chiller kit, and 200shot of nitrous(wet kit)...

WRONG AGAIN. You wouldn't be making the power with the stock twins in that build. You'd be making it with the NOS. You said nothing about NOS in your earlier posts, and Evilfurby didn't ask about making power with NOS - he asked about making it with the stock twins.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Theres your 650rwhp. Stock engine is 320 just the nitrous alone bumps it up to 520(and thats a maybe 1000dollar mod depending on where you get the kit from) I got 24 grand left. Any questions?...

No questions, but you broke the conditions you set up in post #7 of this thread. You made the power using a stroker kit & nos...not the stock block and stock twins.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...And your still wrong. As I have already maped it out for you...

Sure you made the power, but not with the stock block and the stock twins. LOL!

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...I said the stock motor yes. Engine management, nitrous, and more boost I never said you couldnt use(show me where I said word for word that you couldnt use these things). With these things alone you can get that amount when done right. However, then you claimed that even if I could do anythign to the motor the stock twins wouldnt handle it. Which again is not true...

STOCK BLOCK = NO STROKER KIT. DUH.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Bingo now someone is thinking. I never said once you couldnt use nitrous or any other means of management. Just stock block and stock twins. Anything else is a go. Now you are coming to reality. I see the dice is turning in my favor...

Let's forget stock twins. Why not take them off completely, and spray a 450 shot? LOL. Again, Evilfurby wasn't talking about making power with nos, and neither were you...till now.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...As you have already losed this debate about a mk4. You have already admitted that 650rwhp is attainable on the stock motor with stock twins with the help of nitrous which is a 1000dollar mod. Well what happened with the rest of the 24grand? I never said once you couldnt use nitrous. Thank you for debating sir...

You're welcome. I hope you enjoyed loosing when you broke the conditions of this debate.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...The funny thing is while I am not qualified to answer these questions you have just debacled yourself in your own debate. First you say "you need a unattainable amount of money to make 650rwhp on the stock block and stock twins" then you say "o but its attainable with nitrous which is a 1000dollar mod." Maybe you will take my advice and chose your battles much more wisely.

I'm glad that YOU finally admit you can't make 650rwhp with the stock twins alone. At least the others reading this thread know the truth NOW.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...And I am waiting for you to admit you debacled yourself. You just admitted it was attainable with the help of something so cheap as nitrous. I was waiting for you to notice your own flaw. This is the second time you have done this to yourself. I hope this isnt a habbit for you.

I mentioned NO2 MUCH earlier in this debate, and specifically excluded it from the conditions. Sorry for you that you didn't notice it sooner. You also said in your post that stated the conditions of this debate that you'd make the power with the stock twins. You never mentioned anything about nos.

Also, why didn't your earlier (flawed) calculations here include NO2? LOL!

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

I don’t really want to get into this hp battle (although very informational).
But I really don’t see the stock twins pushing that much psi and rwhp...

You're correct. They can't. Not even close.

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

...It’s not impossible...

Omg not you too!? It's not possible! Really! Not even close! Hundreds of people have invested thousands of $ and literally years of time. There's just no way to get them to push more than very close to 500rwhp. In fact just getting to about 450rwhp (bpu++++) already costs at least a thousand $ (probably a lot more), AND you have to have a low-mileage Supra to get even that high.

Upon what data do you base your statement?

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

...but who the hell would want to stress the car so much?...

It really doesn't "stress the car" at all. With a mid-size or large single turbo and race fuel, an Mkiv Supra can handle 650rwhp without any problem.

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

...Pushing the stock tt limits it’s not good even with bpu's. I would probably start thinking of single or bigger tt upgrade around 500. Just my $0.02...

I agree that pushing the oem twins to their limit of 450+rwhp will be hard on them. Getting them past 500rwhp is near-impossible; getting them to 650rwhp is both impossible and rediculous.

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

...Just for my info…anybody who is running stock twins,

How much are you pushing? What is your limit? Where would you say “No More”.

When I was running stock twins, I made about 400rwhp before I went to a single turbo, and that was full bpu+, with about 20 or 21psi of boost and race fuel. It doesn't matter where I would say "No More", because the stock twins do it for you. They say "No More" at about 25psi of boost and about 475rwhp at average-best, assuming your 2jz-gte is in very good condition and your turbos are low-mileage (ideally, less than 25,000 miles on them).