Stock Block

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Actually let me do the math on this. A 93-98 tt supra puts out about 320hp stock. The stock boost on the ct26's is usually around 7-11.5(ea). Now the ct26's are much like a conventional t3/t4. The ct26 is capable of putting out 20psi max. Now each psi equals about 7-10hp. If we up the boost from the stock 10psi on each turbo to say 20psi on each turbo thats 40 psi total on a 2jz NA puts out around 240. So take 40multiply that by 10 you get 400hp add the stock motors hp which is 240 and you get around 640hp. The proof is in the math. Of course engine management/fuel management will be needed. But the stock turbos are capable of that mark. Now if I can only find that dam link.

I hope all that made sense. Sorry if that was confusing.

Your post is not confusing in the least, but your earlier post clearly said 650whp. What you're saying now (640hp at the crank) is still too high, but it's quite a bit closer to reality. The absolute maximum recorded horsepower figure for a stock us-spec 2jz-gte (including stock cams) with stock 2jz-gte turbos, an open exhaust, 20+psi of boost and race fuel is very near to 500rwhp through a 6spd (regardless of fuel or engine management). Driveline loss through a manual tranny is generally accepted as 15%, which gives us about 588.25 hp at the crank.

If you think you can build an Mkiv Supra TT with a bone-stock 2jz-gte and stock twins that will produce 640hp at the crank (a full 544hp at the wheels) then do so and you will be in the record books. Until then, the theoretical maximum for the oem 2jz-gte twin turbos on a normally aspirated (NA) 2jz-ge is irrelevant to Evilfurby's original question. I might also remind you that the 2jz-ge (NA) has higher compression than the 2jz-gte...and that the head is different so the oem twins don't bolt up to the 2jz-ge head.

I hope that wasn't confusing.

[SKILMATIC]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Your post is not confusing in the least, but your earlier post clearly said 650whp. What you're saying now (640hp at the crank) is still too high, but it's quite a bit closer to reality. The absolute maximum recorded horsepower figure for a stock us-spec 2jz-gte (including stock cams) with stock 2jz-gte turbos, with an open exhaust, 20+psi and race fuel is very, very near to 500rwhp with a 6spd (regardless of fuel or engine management). Driveline loss through a manual tranny is generally accepted as 15%, which gives us about 588.25 hp at the crank.

If you think you can build an Mkiv Supra TT with a bone-stock 2jz-gte and stock twins that will produce 640hp at the crank (a full 544hp at the wheels) then do so and you will be in the record books. Until then, the theoretical maximum for two ct26's on a normally aspirated (NA) 2jz-ge is irrelevant to Evilfurby's original question. I might also remind you that the 2jz-ge (NA) has higher compression than the 2jz-gte...and that the head is different so the oem twins don't bolt up to the 2jz-ge head.

I hope that wasn't too confusing for you.

Well again I am not talking about a stock top end I am talking about just a stock bottom end(as I have repeatedly said stock block) with the stock turbos. And I meant to say 650rwhp. With a better grind cams, angle cut valves, and a P&P head you can easily squeeze out 650rwhp.

Btw, I have never heard anyone say "normally aspriated" before. I usually here it as called naturally aspirated.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Well again I am not talking about a stock top end I am talking about just a stock bottom end(as I have repeatedly said stock block) with the stock turbos. And I meant to say 650rwhp. With a better grind cams, angle cut valves, and a P&P head you can easily squeeze out 650rwhp...

Sorry, ain't gonna happen...not at 20psi, and not for any feasible dollar amount.

...Also you're the one that brought up horsepower figures for an NA (normally/naturally aspirated) 2jz, which has different pistions in the bottom end than the 2jz-gte that comes with the '97 Mkiv TT.

Lastly, I sincerely doubt Evilfuby was talking about buying a '97 Mkiv TT for 20K, and then spending another $15K on headwork (and even with $15K of headwork and cams you STILL won't get 650rwhp out of the stock twins)... LOL!

[SKILMATIC]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Sorry, ain't gonna happen...not at 20psi, and not for any feasible dollar amount.

Also, I sincerely doubt Evilfuby was talking about buying a '97 Mkiv TT for 20K, and then spending another $15K on headwork... LOL!

Umm the headwork can be done at a local precision shop for less than 1500bucks. I have no idea where you are getting your prices from but I would seriosuly stop going to whatever shop you go to. The cams you can get(depending on the brand) for no more than 800. And again we are talking about 20psi to each turbo which equivlates to 40total psi.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Umm the headwork can be done at a local precision shop for less than 1500bucks. I have no idea where you are getting your prices from but I would seriosuly stop going to whatever shop you go to. The cams you can get(depending on the brand) for no more than 800. And again we are talking about 20psi to each turbo which equivlates to 40total psi.

OMG! 40psi on the stock twins! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. That's SO far out of their efficiency range it's rediculous. Even if you could get 40psi out of the oem twins without twisting their pencil-thin shafts to licorice...at that boost level they're super-heating the air, so you get more volume&pressure without any additional horsepower-producing oxygen.

...oh, and sorry to be the one clue you into the fact that turbo pressure isn't additive. In order to get 40psi out of the stock twins, they'd BOTH have to be pushing 40psi (not 20psi each LOL ).

I personally know of only two Mkiv Supra TT owners (one individual and one race team) that literally spent many, many thousands of $ trying to do better than 500rwhp with the stock twins. They both did eventually get there, but even 500rwhp is EXTREMELY difficult to achieve. Even 500rwhp (a VERY, VERY FAR cry from 650rwhp on oem twins) requires EXTENSIVE modifications to BRAND-NEW turbos from Toyota, modified manifolds, throttle body, charge-air system, actuators, wastegate, extrude-honing, P&P, and a BRAND-NEW shortblock from Toyota! In fact, most bpu++++ Mkiv Supras with 50K miles or more on the odo don't ever achieve more than 425rwhp (including me, back when I was 'bpu'). A very few bpu+++ Mkiv Supra TT's do get into the mid and higher 400's, but even that's VERY rare; fwiw, I'd estimate no more than 25 bpu++++ Mkiv Supras ever above 475rwhp (boost only, no NO2) in the US.

Like I said, if YOU think that YOU can build a 650rwhp Mkiv Supra TT (stock twins), with a bone-stock 2jz-gte bottom end (even if you do cams, oversize valves or WHATEVER to the 2jz-gte head)...WITHOUT NO2 (and on gasoline not nitromathane ), then I'd encourage you to try. You'd hold the record by a LONG shot, and I'm sure you'd sell that 'would-be-famous' Supra for whatever $ you put into it. Until then, you're doing nothing but spouting absolute nonsense. Really. I do wish you LOTS of luck...because you'll need LOTS of luck, and a heavy dose of magic too, because it's just not possible.

[TRAFIK]

Good Point

[SKILMATIC]

OMG! 40psi on the stock twins! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. That's SO far out of their efficiency range it's rediculous. Even if you could get 40psi out of the oem twins without twisting their pencil-thin shafts to licorice...at that boost level they're super-heating the air, so you get more volume&pressure without any additional horsepower-producing oxygen.

How is that so rediculous? Did you know the turbo used on the evo stock which is a 16g boosts 19psi and the hot side and the ar housing and turbine wheel are smaller than the ct26 ? So why would a smaller turbo be able to put out more power? Maybe you need to clue yourself in on facts instead of what you want to believe. Also I dont know how afluent you are on turbocharging and boosting but the more pressure and heat you get the better AS FAR AS THE HOT SIDE IS CONCERNED. Now as far as oxygen is concerned you should be getting plenty as a turbo is designed to suck it in. I dont quite follow you on this. Could you please explain better? Remember a turbo mixes exhaust gases into the ambient air form the intake charge. So oxygen isnt a problem.

...oh, and sorry to be the one clue you into the fact that turbo pressure isn't additive.

Huh? When did I say it was an additive? Pressure exists all around us.

In order to get 40psi out of the stock twins, they'd BOTH have to be pushing 40psi (not 20psi each LOL ).

BWAHAHAHA umm.. incase you didnt know hey are sequential turbos and in a sequential setup you add the psi on each turbo to determine the total psi. Ask any professional technician that. A matter of fact call toyota up right now and ask them. If they were boosting 40psi each that would mean the engine would have a total boost of 80psi. One turbine spins on the lower rpms and when that boost tapers off the other turbo kicks in and finishes the job throughout the rpm band. Thus rendering the turbo setup to be added because they are in sequence of each other.

Like I said, if YOU think that YOU can build a 640rwhp Mkiv Supra TT (stock twins), with a bone-stock 2jz-gte bottom end (even if you do cams, oversize valves or WHATEVER to the 2jz-gte head)...

I never said over sized valves. I said angle cut valves. Please brush up on your knowledge of machine work.

Again I dont need luck when its been done before with pure mathematics. Thats all engines are. Engines were built on the concept of mathematics. And so is every turbo system or blower system out there.

If you seriously tell me a mere 20psi to a ct26 is impossible while a 16g turbo can produce a 19psi stock then you sir are the laughing stock. I tell you what when I find that article I would appreciate it if you would renounce all your mubo jumbo. hahahha

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

How is that so rediculous? Did you know the turbo used on the evo stock which is a 16g boosts 19psi and the hot side and the ar housing and turbine wheel are smaller than the ct26 ? So why would a smaller turbo be able to put out more power? Maybe you need to clue yourself in on facts instead of what you want to believe. Also I dont know how afluent you are on turbocharging and boosting but the more pressure and heat you get the better AS FAR AS THE HOT SIDE IS CONCERNED. Now as far as oxygen is concerned you should be getting plenty as a turbo is designed to suck it in. I dont quite follow you on this. Could you please explain better?...

Who is talking about the hot side? It's the compressor sides of the oem 2jz-gte turbos that are far out of their efficiency range at 40psi. The compressor wheel would be spinning so fast that friction with the air would produce more heat than dense airflow. In other words, beyond its efficiency point the turbo only heats the air - it doesn't force more oxygen into the cylinders.

Also be warned (again) that if you try to push 40psi from the stock twins they'll grenade. The shafts aren't thick enough to tolerate that much stress.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Remember a turbo mixes exhaust gases into the ambient air form the intake charge. So oxygen isnt a problem...

Upon which restroom wall did you read that 'gem' of turbocharging technology? Do you even know what a turbocharger is? Based on your post, I seriously doubt it.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Huh? When did I say it was an additive? Pressure exists all around us...

You said the pressure from two turbos running in parallel is additive. 20psi+20psi=40psi ... additive. Get it? ...and as a reminder, in response I said no way in hell.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...incase you didnt know hey are sequential turbos and in a sequential setup you add the psi on each turbo to determine the total psi. Ask any professional technician that. A matter of fact call toyota up right now and ask them. If they were boosting 40psi each that would mean the engine would have a total boost of 80psi...

Tell ya what sport...you call Toyota and you ask them. Or better yet, why don't you call up anyone that has ever built a bpu++++ Supra and ask them if 40psi can be produced by the stock twins.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...One turbine spins on the lower rpms and when that boost tapers off the other turbo kicks in and finishes the job throughout the rpm band. Thus rendering the turbo setup to be added because they are in sequence of each other...

The sequential system on the Mkiv Supra works (roughly) as follows:
1) Exhaust gasses from all 6 cylinders spool up one of the two identically-sized turbos...it produces boost all by itself until about 3500rpms.
2) At about 3500 rpms, the exhaust gasses are transitioned to run through both of the identically sized turbos, and they both run simultaneously to produce the total boost and the total airflow through the charge-air system.
In other words, the two identically-sized turbochargers work together to produce the cfm's necessary (for example) for 20psi while the engine spins at (for example) 5500 rpms on a bpu++++ Mkiv Supra.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...I never said over sized valves. I said angle cut valves. Please brush up on your knowledge of machine work...

I know EXACTLY what you said, since I have both a seven-angle job (cut on a Serdi machine) AND oversize valves on the 2jz-gte head that's in my Supra. YOU need to brush up on YOUR reading skills because I said no matter WHAT you do to the 2jz-gte head, you won't make 650rwhp using the oem twins alone.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Again I dont need luck when its been done before with pure mathematics. Thats all engines are. Engines were built on the concept of mathematics. And so is every turbo system or blower system out there. ...

Why is your math so far off then? 650rwhp with only the oem twins on a stock 2jz-gte has never been done, and it will never be done. Prove me wrong by either finding an example of someone that's already done it (not gonna happen), or buying your own Supra and making it happen, or stfu. Spreading your fantasy-land garbage 'information' about 650rwhp on stock twins is polluting this forum with nonsense.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...If you seriously tell me a mere 20psi to a ct26 is impossible while a 16g turbo can produce a 19psi stock then you sir are the laughing stock. I tell you what when I find that article I would appreciate it if you would renounce all your mubo jumbo.

I didn't say 20psi is impossible. I said 40psi is impossible with a stock 2jz-gte's oem twins, and I said that that turbo pressure is NOT additive. Just because ONE turbo alone can make 19psi, doesn't mean that two of them together on that same engine can make 38psi. Again, learn to read.

You're also wrong because men that are much more skilled and knowledgeable than you (apparently) are have spent thousands of $ and years of time maxing out what they could achieve with the oem twins before they went to a single turbo to get the results they were looking for. Open your mind and learn something! I really don't give a rat's @ss if you want to live in ignorance, but for the sake of the others on this forum that are trying to learn something, don't try and BS your way out of this. It's not about an ego trip, it's about learning. Ask some questions and I'll give you honest, complete answers. Try to BS and pretend you know what you're talking about and things are only going to get worse for you.

Also, none of what I'm saying is "mumbo jumbo". I've owned an Mkiv Supra since 1994, and I've been deeply involved in the Supra community since 1998. I've built SEVERAL bpu++++ and apu Supras. Have you ever even ridden in one?