Tired of rod knocks...

cre · 11-03-2011, 10:03 PM

EDIT, Sorry, not patient enough to read one giant block of text today. I see you've checked most of what I listed. I'll reread it later and see if anything else comes to mind. You have a thermostat on the cooler? and is it a full flow cooler setup or bypass?

Your issues are unique... most people track down and fix the real problem by set number two.

Seriously though, people make a LOT more power than you're seeing and use the stock pump without issue. Some shim the relief valve for a pressure bump but it's not so common any more (just one of those things which everyone recommended until someone actually researched the oil system and found it sufficient to support 700RWHP... ya know?)

Have you replaced the pump? The oil squirters? Pulled the pistons and made sure they're sound? Checked that the cylinder bores are true? Have you measured the crank to ensure that it's straight? If it's been pulled and improperly stored without supports it may warp from its own weight. Have you measured the journals on the crank and the rods to make sure they're true and really round? Measure the rods with the caps bolted and torqued. Have you made sure the oil inlets/feeds in the rods and bearings are unobstructed? There's a lot of stuff which could contribute to your problem. I'd start with what's mentioned... if the pump hasn't been replaced I recommend you replace it; make sure the replacement is for the GTE and NOT GE. Replace the oil squirters.... they're essentially a controlled leak and can open up at too low of a pressure over time... same for the stock POS oil cooler setup actually (You ARE running an oil cooler, correct?).

400 at the wheels is about the limit for a healthy GTE (rebuilt, it actually take more but requires upgrades apart from the long block). If you picked up a used engine from Joe Blow then you can only guess what you're going to get. You see very little complaint about rod knock with these engines given the age and amount of abuse they usually see; See it more with JDM engines or domestic if they've been sitting in someone's yard.

turbonicsperformance · 11-03-2011, 10:10 PM

I did all of that i shimmed the pump and thecooler relief the squirters were all replaced the pistons are forged and the rest of the internals are stock. EVERYTHING was thoroughly cleaned and measured before assembly. Yes I am running a VERY LARGE oil cooler. I'm beginning to think the pump i used is from a ge... i never even thought itd be different i had 3 engines and 3 pumps 1 engine was a ge and it had 30k on it so i think i used that pump.. do the pumps look identical?

cre · 11-03-2011, 10:21 PM

You threw in an unknown, used oil pump? lol.

I added an edit to my previous post, I didn't read your entire post so I missed a lot of what you've done. Have you had the crank out for any length of time? Has everything been measured and proven truly round? I presume you've got a thermostat on the oil cooler (I REALLY hope you ditched the stock pressure based piece of shit)... Is it a full flow or bypass setup?

turbonicsperformance · 11-03-2011, 10:29 PM

its the stock cooler setup with different lines and cooler.I figured I didn't need much of a cooler upgrade being that the turbo is also water cooled and i'm not making any real high #s. my oil never gets all that hot even after a full run on the track you can grab the cooler and lines leading to and from it and it won't even phase you plus if you pull the dipstick and touch the oil its pretty cool so i never even bothered with a gauge for it. and no the crank was out of the engine for maybe a 48 hour period then reinstalled and was stood on end as it should be. the used oil pump was only because the stock engine in my car died and this was the only option i had NO cash to throw into it and after measuring all the clearances i wasn't too worried about it. do the ge and gte pumps look the same just flow different?

cre · 11-03-2011, 11:16 PM

With all the trouble you're having I'd make sure the crank's straight anyway... It's not the stiffest of metal, and they're quite long. I have seen one go south pretty quick myself (never checked one that was out for less than a week though, but still not a bad idea).

Yes, they look the same but the GTE flows a good amount more to account for all the additional sources of pressure drop: turbo, cooler and oil squirters. I'd guess 25% more or so.

If you can touch the oil it's running too cool. The stock cooler is PRESSURE based, not temp. If the valve is stuck open or the spring is weak it'll stay open, over cool the oil and tank your oil pressure. I HIGHLY recommend you just ditch it and get a thermostat in there.

How are you measuring the oil pressure? Not with the stock gauge I hope. Low pressure is fine below 3K (according to Toyota) but 4psi is lower than any GTE I've worked on... or GE for that matter. Toyota says 4.3psi or more is fine but in a healthy engine I don't think I've ever seen it lower than around 6 or 7 warm.

turbonicsperformance · 11-03-2011, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre

With all the trouble you're having I'd make sure the crank's straight anyway... It's not the stiffest of metal, and they're quite long. I have seen one go south pretty quick myself (never checked one that was out for less than a week though, but still not a bad idea).

Yes, they look the same but the GTE flows a good amount more to account for all the additional sources of pressure drop: turbo, cooler and oil squirters. I'd guess 25% more or so.

If you can touch the oil it's running too cool. The stock cooler is PRESSURE based, not temp. If the valve is stuck open or the spring is weak it'll stay open, over cool the oil and tank your oil pressure. I HIGHLY recommend you just ditch it and get a thermostat in there.

How are you measuring the oil pressure? Not with the stock gauge I hope. Low pressure is fine below 3K (according to Toyota) but 4psi is lower than any GTE I've worked on... or GE for that matter. Toyota says 4.3psi or more is fine but in a healthy engine I don't think I've ever seen it lower than around 6 or 7 warm.

when it was first built it idled around 10 12 psi warm and would top around 40.After about 1k miles it would idle around 6-7psi and now it idles at 3-4 psi and is knocking pretty loud. You can't hear it under a load or at idle it makes noise from 1800-3000 rpm any higher or lower its silent.
does anyone sell a full kit to convert it to a full flow thermostat system? or am i gonna have to piece one together?
everything was checked before the engine was put together the crank is straight as well as the block it was checked on a machinists table and showed less than .001 difference anywhere.

I'm really thinking i put the ge pump in it hopefully the crank is fine this time. last time it happened i had one bearing with what loooked like a burnt spot but no missing material or scoring on the crank or bearings...

87hilux7mge · 11-04-2011, 04:50 AM

i was going to suggest a bent crank and/or out of spec mains. id have the block and crank checked for align straightness.

3 sets of bearings is pretty hefty for these, thats ruff though, sorry man, hope you figure it out soon.

cre · 11-04-2011, 04:58 AM

Nope, no one makes a kit that I know of. It's easy though. 1/2" or -10AN hose, block adapter for remote mount oil filter, remote oil filter head, thermostat.... and whatever fittings you need. A sandwich plate with the ports on the side is far easier to work with than one where they come straight out... 90? fittings are more restrictive and depending on your IC piping size have very little clearance. I've been curious about how well a water based oil cooler setup would work on a mildly built 7M....

The GE pump isn't wonderful but people do get by with them in N/A-T setups without issue. I'd try eliminating the stock oil cooler as a suspect first (only temporarily). It's easy to check if it's the source of the problem: remove the filter, remove the cooler/filter adapter or whatever you want to call it, install a GE oil filter nipple and directly mount an oil filter... run engine.

A burn spot, no scoring and no material lost? Wow, you caught that quick.... of course if I were dealing with the same engine I'd have very finely tuned hearing too.

Well, you're having shit luck that's for sure, they're not my favorite platform but they're usually more reliable than what you've had to deal with. Are the knocks occurring in the same location? Is the engine level (not tipped on any given axis)?

11-03-2011, 10:03 PM	#1
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	EDIT, Sorry, not patient enough to read one giant block of text today. I see you've checked most of what I listed. I'll reread it later and see if anything else comes to mind. You have a thermostat on the cooler? and is it a full flow cooler setup or bypass? Your issues are unique... most people track down and fix the real problem by set number two. Seriously though, people make a LOT more power than you're seeing and use the stock pump without issue. Some shim the relief valve for a pressure bump but it's not so common any more (just one of those things which everyone recommended until someone actually researched the oil system and found it sufficient to support 700RWHP... ya know?) Have you replaced the pump? The oil squirters? Pulled the pistons and made sure they're sound? Checked that the cylinder bores are true? Have you measured the crank to ensure that it's straight? If it's been pulled and improperly stored without supports it may warp from its own weight. Have you measured the journals on the crank and the rods to make sure they're true and really round? Measure the rods with the caps bolted and torqued. Have you made sure the oil inlets/feeds in the rods and bearings are unobstructed? There's a lot of stuff which could contribute to your problem. I'd start with what's mentioned... if the pump hasn't been replaced I recommend you replace it; make sure the replacement is for the GTE and NOT GE. Replace the oil squirters.... they're essentially a controlled leak and can open up at too low of a pressure over time... same for the stock POS oil cooler setup actually (You ARE running an oil cooler, correct?). 400 at the wheels is about the limit for a healthy GTE (rebuilt, it actually take more but requires upgrades apart from the long block). If you picked up a used engine from Joe Blow then you can only guess what you're going to get. You see very little complaint about rod knock with these engines given the age and amount of abuse they usually see; See it more with JDM engines or domestic if they've been sitting in someone's yard. __________________ If something breaks or you need to contact a member of the administration please post HERE. Unless it's a private or administration matter please post it on the forum. It benefits no one else if car related questions aren't posted for future users and takes away from the time I'm able to spend helping on the rest of the forum. If you're so inclined I'm always more than happy to accept tips via PayPal. Tip Jar ---> Last edited by cre; 11-03-2011 at 10:14 PM.

11-03-2011, 10:10 PM	#2
turbonicsperformance 3" Exhaust Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: sarasota fl Posts: 194	I did all of that i shimmed the pump and thecooler relief the squirters were all replaced the pistons are forged and the rest of the internals are stock. EVERYTHING was thoroughly cleaned and measured before assembly. Yes I am running a VERY LARGE oil cooler. I'm beginning to think the pump i used is from a ge... i never even thought itd be different i had 3 engines and 3 pumps 1 engine was a ge and it had 30k on it so i think i used that pump.. do the pumps look identical? __________________ 92 miata 7mgte swap forged pistons,studded mhg, 3 inch dp with a glass pack,blowthrough MAF-T,550cc inj, act stage 2 clutch, fmic kit, greddy rs, full wire tuck, rx7 lsd rear with 4.10s. 15psi "ct26-A"??(waiting on dyno #s) if anyone knows whats up with my turbo let me know it has a larger comp wheel nicer machining and 6 dual fins rather than 5? its confusing and keep finding too much contradicting info. would LLLLLOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVEEEEE a compressor map

11-03-2011, 10:21 PM	#3
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	You threw in an unknown, used oil pump? lol. I added an edit to my previous post, I didn't read your entire post so I missed a lot of what you've done. Have you had the crank out for any length of time? Has everything been measured and proven truly round? I presume you've got a thermostat on the oil cooler (I REALLY hope you ditched the stock pressure based piece of shit)... Is it a full flow or bypass setup? __________________ If something breaks or you need to contact a member of the administration please post HERE. Unless it's a private or administration matter please post it on the forum. It benefits no one else if car related questions aren't posted for future users and takes away from the time I'm able to spend helping on the rest of the forum. If you're so inclined I'm always more than happy to accept tips via PayPal. Tip Jar --->

11-03-2011, 10:29 PM	#4
turbonicsperformance 3" Exhaust Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: sarasota fl Posts: 194	its the stock cooler setup with different lines and cooler.I figured I didn't need much of a cooler upgrade being that the turbo is also water cooled and i'm not making any real high #s. my oil never gets all that hot even after a full run on the track you can grab the cooler and lines leading to and from it and it won't even phase you plus if you pull the dipstick and touch the oil its pretty cool so i never even bothered with a gauge for it. and no the crank was out of the engine for maybe a 48 hour period then reinstalled and was stood on end as it should be. the used oil pump was only because the stock engine in my car died and this was the only option i had NO cash to throw into it and after measuring all the clearances i wasn't too worried about it. do the ge and gte pumps look the same just flow different? __________________ 92 miata 7mgte swap forged pistons,studded mhg, 3 inch dp with a glass pack,blowthrough MAF-T,550cc inj, act stage 2 clutch, fmic kit, greddy rs, full wire tuck, rx7 lsd rear with 4.10s. 15psi "ct26-A"??(waiting on dyno #s) if anyone knows whats up with my turbo let me know it has a larger comp wheel nicer machining and 6 dual fins rather than 5? its confusing and keep finding too much contradicting info. would LLLLLOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVEEEEE a compressor map Last edited by turbonicsperformance; 11-03-2011 at 10:38 PM.

11-03-2011, 11:16 PM	#5
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	With all the trouble you're having I'd make sure the crank's straight anyway... It's not the stiffest of metal, and they're quite long. I have seen one go south pretty quick myself (never checked one that was out for less than a week though, but still not a bad idea). Yes, they look the same but the GTE flows a good amount more to account for all the additional sources of pressure drop: turbo, cooler and oil squirters. I'd guess 25% more or so. If you can touch the oil it's running too cool. The stock cooler is PRESSURE based, not temp. If the valve is stuck open or the spring is weak it'll stay open, over cool the oil and tank your oil pressure. I HIGHLY recommend you just ditch it and get a thermostat in there. How are you measuring the oil pressure? Not with the stock gauge I hope. Low pressure is fine below 3K (according to Toyota) but 4psi is lower than any GTE I've worked on... or GE for that matter. Toyota says 4.3psi or more is fine but in a healthy engine I don't think I've ever seen it lower than around 6 or 7 warm. __________________ If something breaks or you need to contact a member of the administration please post HERE. Unless it's a private or administration matter please post it on the forum. It benefits no one else if car related questions aren't posted for future users and takes away from the time I'm able to spend helping on the rest of the forum. If you're so inclined I'm always more than happy to accept tips via PayPal. Tip Jar --->

11-04-2011, 04:50 AM	#7
87hilux7mge walbro fp Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: spokane Posts: 479	i was going to suggest a bent crank and/or out of spec mains. id have the block and crank checked for align straightness. 3 sets of bearings is pretty hefty for these, thats ruff though, sorry man, hope you figure it out soon. __________________ 87 toyota 4x4 single cab short box pickup, 7MGZE.

11-04-2011, 04:58 AM	#8
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	Nope, no one makes a kit that I know of. It's easy though. 1/2" or -10AN hose, block adapter for remote mount oil filter, remote oil filter head, thermostat.... and whatever fittings you need. A sandwich plate with the ports on the side is far easier to work with than one where they come straight out... 90? fittings are more restrictive and depending on your IC piping size have very little clearance. I've been curious about how well a water based oil cooler setup would work on a mildly built 7M.... The GE pump isn't wonderful but people do get by with them in N/A-T setups without issue. I'd try eliminating the stock oil cooler as a suspect first (only temporarily). It's easy to check if it's the source of the problem: remove the filter, remove the cooler/filter adapter or whatever you want to call it, install a GE oil filter nipple and directly mount an oil filter... run engine. A burn spot, no scoring and no material lost? Wow, you caught that quick.... of course if I were dealing with the same engine I'd have very finely tuned hearing too. Well, you're having shit luck that's for sure, they're not my favorite platform but they're usually more reliable than what you've had to deal with. Are the knocks occurring in the same location? Is the engine level (not tipped on any given axis)? __________________ If something breaks or you need to contact a member of the administration please post HERE. Unless it's a private or administration matter please post it on the forum. It benefits no one else if car related questions aren't posted for future users and takes away from the time I'm able to spend helping on the rest of the forum. If you're so inclined I'm always more than happy to accept tips via PayPal. Tip Jar --->

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