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Old 10-28-2009, 05:40 PM   #1
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Hi, I'm currently looking at buying a 1989 MA70 with 7M-GTEU 3.0turbo motor & autobox. The car has a running fault at the moment, I haven't heard it yet as the guy with the battery booster & immobiliser fob wasn't there, I'm going back tomorrow for a listen.

From what I'm told it makes plenty of power & is OK on throttle but just runs rough & stalls at tickover speed (fine if it's wound up a bit though).

I'm thinking possibly a CTS fault or vacuum leak but if anyone here has experience of this type of fault & it's causes then my ears are pinned back in anticipation!

Cheers, Dan.

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Old 10-30-2009, 03:02 AM   #2
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Start here: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/TechTi...ror_codes.aspx Very few diagnostic errors on mid 90's and earlier Toyotas will present a constant CEL/MIL... always check for error codes.If the light doesn't come on when the key is turned to the "ON" position, BEFORE the car is started, it's either burned out or the owner removed the light to try and hide or ignore problems.

EDIT: and I have NO idea what "tickover speed" means... perhaps you could explain without the use of slang or region specific colloquialisms.
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Old 10-31-2009, 02:22 PM   #3
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Hi, thanks for the reply. I've had a look & listen now & theres no MIL showing (can't recall if it came on with ignition as I was a bit preoccupied trying to shut the alarm up once the battery was on!)

I wasn't aware that tickover was a slang or colloquial term to be honest, it means idle, engine running with no throttle, not sure how else to describe it...

Anyway, the car won't start unless you hold the throttle open & when it does it runs very rich. Sometimes it will stay running with no throttle if you let it off real slow but most times it just cuts out below about 2500rpm. When it is idling/ticking over or whatever it runs very rough & lumpy with a lot of misfiring & black smoke from the exhaust, however once it's given a bit of right foot the motor picks up nicely & runs pretty smoothly above 2500/3000rpm.

Whatever the fault is, I've heard it running now & I'm happy that the engine's mechanically sound so now I just have to convince the guy that he wants my Pajero in exchange!

EDIT-: meant to say, it's had the AFM replaced with a secondhand one & then an NOS part which hasn't cured anything. For what it's worth I think changing the old looking plugs/leads etc is going to help, maybe the injectors could do with an ultrasonic bath too since it's been sat for quite a while.

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Old 10-31-2009, 06:28 PM   #4
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Gotcha, should have looked it up...
Quote:
Tick over - Phrasal Verb - (Engineering / Automotive Engineering) Also idle Brit (of an engine) to run at low speed with the throttle control closed and the transmission disengaged.
I can honestly say I don't recall ever hearing that term before. My ignorance has now been cropped just that much more; it is a good day!



Back to the car:

There are too many red flags showing up here now...

He's been running NOS, it's dumping black smoke (if it is black see: running rich; if it is bluish see: burning oil) and it's not running well... I'd run. RUN away from this deal and keep looking. Unless you've got the money to pay a good mechanic YOU know and trust to do a complete diagnosis on a car you're looking at you should always try to stay away from modified vehicles unless you know you can either afford to: be without a vehicle for extended periods of time (if it's going to be your only car), completely rebuild the engine, buy lots of unexpected parts, learn more about the workings of an automotive drive train than you ever wanted... and so on. The use of NOS isn't a red flag in and of itself, but it's the cheapest power adder out there and as such it's all too often installed and employed poorly. The fact that the owner went to the trouble of adding a NOS system to squeeze more power out of the car and in doing so may have contributed to the vehicles poor running state is the concern... what other corners have been cut, what other cheats did they try and so on.

I'm not saying the car is worthless; I've just seen many people buy what they think is a great deal just because they built it all up in their head to be "perfect" and as such blinded themselves to the fact that the vehicle was in too great a state of disrepair for their skill, wallets and/or facilities to allow them to correct.

Now, back to the diagnosis, checking for error codes is simple and can be VERY valuable in determining very quickly if there is something seriously wrong with the car. It only takes a few seconds and not doing so is what leads me to believe that you're perhaps a little too emotionally wound up in the deal. You should do this, there is no reason not to.

Other common things to check include pulling the spark plug wires to check for oil. Often when the valve cover gaskets leak oil will pour down into the galley where the plugs sit and can cause significant misfiring. Timing and the throttle position sensor alignment. Any signs of significant blow by? Does the dipstick try to blow out after a spirited drive?

Having the injectors serviced is a very good idea. I recommend buying a couple extra injectors and sending in 8 or 9 for servicing and flow testing. From the results you can then build a nice pristine and matched set. Sometimes, you get lucky and the set you've got are very close; Sometimes, they're all a mile off from one another.


There are a LOT of unknown factors here and I strongly suggest you take the car to a mechanic of your choosing and have them check for error codes, do a leak down test and compression test, check the timing, check for oil around the spark plugs and determine if the smoke is oil or fuel.
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Old 11-03-2009, 12:54 PM   #5
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Right I'm back at last & before i finish reading your reply can I just apologise for using more Brit-isms here, NOS meaning to me "New Old Stock" as in an unused boxed item that's sat on a dealers shelf from back when these cars were current (Airflow Meter was replaced with secondhand and then New Old Stock item) and not the block-splitting, head cracking, rod-spewing goodness that is !!!

Anyway, sorry for that indiscretion. I'm off to read the rest of your reply now... There's no "blush" smiley that I can see or I'd use that...

EDIT-: OK firstly I really should check the fault codes once I find the thread on how to do that again (saw it the other day but forgot what pins) and I will do once I've got the car home. I should also sort out my profile & fill you in a bit on my background.
I'm not another of the doubtless many clueless kids out there who see a big black Supra & think "there's MY penis extension sorted!", I've been into cars and bikes all of my 28 years on Gods earth & the Supra will be car number 30-odd that I've owned/worked on. I have a fair amount of experience working on more complicated motors, having owned a couple of BMW 7 series & Jaguar XJ6's previously too & I'm just a noob to Toyotas as opposed to a complete vehicular noob.

Also, the Supra I'm looking at is from a guy I know who runs an engine rebuilding business & has had a full engine rebuild done by him (head skimmed, valves ground & shimmed, rebore, new cams/pistons/rings/bearings/seals/water pump, exchanged re-con turbo, the whole nine-yards basically).
The story is that he did this work about 4 years ago & the owner promptly paid up & then vanished, since it's been stored so long on his site he's now taken ownership (storage charges being more than the car will ever be worth) & has the paperwork in his name. As there's still a running fault i.e. the idle problem I described, he just wanted rid & I wanted rid of my old Mitsubishi Pajero too so we did a swap.

Aside from the idle fault which from reading threads on here I believe could well be as simple as setting up the TPS & re-adjusting the timing, as well as removing the dump valve in favour of the recirc. & finding any missing vacuum pipes, there's nothing wrong that I can find mechanically/electrically or even corrosion. Plus it has a nice set of 18" alloys & new tyres worth more than the Pajero on their own!
Anyway I'm gonna stop rambling now, suffice to say you don't need to worry about me baing carried away with the emotion of the situation (which I certainly am!), because I've evaluated the deal & I'm definitely coming away with the better end of it no matter what happens...

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Old 11-03-2009, 01:26 PM   #6
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Oh, and speaking of vacuum pipes, where the one for the dump valve/BOV/recirc. valve, whatever you care to call it, runs across the top of the head (where the rubber hose connects to the steel pipe) there's another steel vac. pipe underneath that which has nothing connected at either end. What is that one for & more importantly to me, where should the pipes run to. I can't see any vacant connectors on the manifold anywhere but surely there's got to be something missing there...

EDIT-: CRE you are a star, found the answer on this thread: http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/...o-lead-to.html

Looks like someone's been messing before the motor was rebuilt as it was just put back as it arrived, which looks nothing like the diagram! At least I've got somewhere to start playing...

Just one more Q, what is the part on the fuel rail, numbered 23280 on the injection diagram? pressure regulator?

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Old 11-03-2009, 05:05 PM   #7
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ROFL!!! Ok, I'm sorry... seems the communications difficulty is mine. Hadn't heard tick over before and should have looked it up and generally when people are talking about cars around here NOS refers to nitrous oxide systems. I do know the acronym for new old stock though, standard ebay search phrase when I'm searching for bike parts. Anyway, don't worry about the "Brit-isms" my vocabulary could always use some expanding... as long as we end up on the same page it's all fine.

I'll get back to you on the rest of your posts later when I have a bit more time.
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:19 AM   #8
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Okay, let's fill in a couple gaps:

Diagnostics codes:
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/TechTi...ror_codes.aspx


Vacuum Routing (multiple references, Toyota really dropped the ball on documenting where some of them run):
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...spx?F=1708&P=3
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...spx?F=2211&P=2
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...spx?F=2501&P=1
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...spx?F=1201&P=2
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...spx?F=8717&P=1
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...spx?F=8408&P=1
This lists sizes: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/TechTips/vacuum_hose.aspx


TPS Inspection and Calibration:
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...ction=FI&P=100

Idle Speed Controller (It's not unheard of for these to get enough detritus built up inside that the ECU is no longer able to keep a regular idle speed... cleaning is cheap and easy and may be all the fix you need):
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...ction=FI&P=106

BPV (Bypass Valve/recirculating/stock setup) vs BOV (Blow Off Valve/Dump Valve/vents to atmosphere):
http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/...rculation.html





Yes, 23280 is the fuel pressure regulator.
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MA70-3.0GT View Post
'm not another of the doubtless many clueless kids out there who see a big black Supra & think "there's MY penis extension sorted!"
Whew.... that's great! I'm so sick of dealing with them. One nice thing about these cars though is that owners like that don't tend to last long with these cars as they either find very quickly that they can't afford all the mistakes (these cars are not cheap); Or, they learn that if they want to see the car keep running they just need to shut up and pay someone who knows what they're doing to fix everything.
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cre View Post
Whew.... that's great! I'm so sick of dealing with them. One nice thing about these cars though is that owners like that don't tend to last long with these cars as they either find very quickly that they can't afford all the mistakes (these cars are not cheap); Or, they learn that if they want to see the car keep running they just need to shut up and pay someone who knows what they're doing to fix everything.

Orrrr, stick a huge dry nitrous shot through it (because nitrous is just another word for cheap power, innit...!) & blow the poor thing to bits when it leans out... Anyway, I've not been able to do much in the way of fiddling with the car since the other day as the weather's been purest British sh!te & I'm not much for standing in the pouring rain with bits of induction system & plugs removed from expensive motors. Hopefully the paperwork'll be sorted in the next couple of weeks & then I can get it home, covered and started on.

Thanks for the links, I've got plenty of printing out to do before I start rectifying the intake & vacuum systems anyhow so hopefully that & drooling over MA70 videos on youtube should keep me busy for a while.
I'll no doubt be back online once a bit of progress, or otherwise, is made so till then Cheers & see ya...
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