Stock Block
 

I am thinking of getting 97 mkiv, how much power can the stock block hold? Can you get all that power on the stock TT's?

-Evilfurby

Well it depends on what your goals are. The stock block in my experience has been able to hold over 800whp fairly easily. And that will probably be too much for you. The stock turbos can produce an easy 650whp then you will either need to upgrade the turbos or go to one large turbo. Also you will need to enhance the fuel management after 500whp.

Stock turbos push less than 500rwhp. No one has ever made anywhere near 650whp with the stock turbos.

Let me get back to you on this. I remember reading somewhere but I forget where. Hold on let me research this. I know I seen this done before.

Actually let me do the math on this. A 93-98 tt supra puts out about 320hp stock. The stock boost on the ct26's is usually around 7-11.5(ea). Now the ct26's are much like a conventional t3/t4. The ct26 is capable of putting out 20psi max. Now each psi equals about 7-10hp. If we up the boost from the stock 10psi on each turbo to say 20psi on each turbo thats 40 psi total on a 2jz NA puts out around 240. So take 40multiply that by 10 you get 400hp add the stock motors hp which is 240 and you get around 640hp. The proof is in the math. Of course engine management/fuel management will be needed. But the stock turbos are capable of that mark. Now if I can only find that dam link.

I hope all that made sense. Sorry if that was confusing.

Your post is not confusing in the least, but your earlier post clearly said 650whp. What you're saying now (640hp at the crank) is still too high, but it's quite a bit closer to reality. The absolute maximum recorded horsepower figure for a stock us-spec 2jz-gte (including stock cams) with stock 2jz-gte turbos, an open exhaust, 20+psi of boost and race fuel is very near to 500rwhp through a 6spd (regardless of fuel or engine management). Driveline loss through a manual tranny is generally accepted as 15%, which gives us about 588.25 hp at the crank.

If you think you can build an Mkiv Supra TT with a bone-stock 2jz-gte and stock twins that will produce 640hp at the crank (a full 544hp at the wheels) then do so and you will be in the record books. Until then, the theoretical maximum for the oem 2jz-gte twin turbos on a normally aspirated (NA) 2jz-ge is irrelevant to Evilfurby's original question. I might also remind you that the 2jz-ge (NA) has higher compression than the 2jz-gte...and that the head is different so the oem twins don't bolt up to the 2jz-ge head.

I hope that wasn't confusing.

Well again I am not talking about a stock top end I am talking about just a stock bottom end(as I have repeatedly said stock block) with the stock turbos. And I meant to say 650rwhp. With a better grind cams, angle cut valves, and a P&P head you can easily squeeze out 650rwhp.

Btw, I have never heard anyone say "normally aspriated" before. I usually here it as called naturally aspirated.

Sorry, ain't gonna happen...not at 20psi, and not for any feasible dollar amount.

...Also you're the one that brought up horsepower figures for an NA (normally/naturally aspirated) 2jz, which has different pistions in the bottom end than the 2jz-gte that comes with the '97 Mkiv TT.

Lastly, I sincerely doubt Evilfuby was talking about buying a '97 Mkiv TT for 20K, and then spending another $15K on headwork (and even with $15K of headwork and cams you STILL won't get 650rwhp out of the stock twins)... LOL!:nuts:

Umm the headwork can be done at a local precision shop for less than 1500bucks. I have no idea where you are getting your prices from but I would seriosuly stop going to whatever shop you go to. The cams you can get(depending on the brand) for no more than 800. And again we are talking about 20psi to each turbo which equivlates to 40total psi.

OMG! 40psi on the stock twins! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. That's SO far out of their efficiency range it's rediculous. Even if you could get 40psi out of the oem twins without twisting their pencil-thin shafts to licorice...at that boost level they're super-heating the air, so you get more volume&pressure without any additional horsepower-producing oxygen.

...oh, and sorry to be the one clue you into the fact that turbo pressure isn't additive. In order to get 40psi out of the stock twins, they'd BOTH have to be pushing 40psi (not 20psi each :rolleyes: LOL ).

I personally know of only two Mkiv Supra TT owners (one individual and one race team) that literally spent many, many thousands of $ trying to do better than 500rwhp with the stock twins. They both did eventually get there, but even 500rwhp is EXTREMELY difficult to achieve. Even 500rwhp (a VERY, VERY FAR cry from 650rwhp on oem twins) requires EXTENSIVE modifications to BRAND-NEW turbos from Toyota, modified manifolds, throttle body, charge-air system, actuators, wastegate, extrude-honing, P&P, and a BRAND-NEW shortblock from Toyota! In fact, most bpu++++ Mkiv Supras with 50K miles or more on the odo don't ever achieve more than 425rwhp (including me, back when I was 'bpu'). A very few bpu+++ Mkiv Supra TT's do get into the mid and higher 400's, but even that's VERY rare; fwiw, I'd estimate no more than 25 bpu++++ Mkiv Supras ever above 475rwhp (boost only, no NO2) in the US.

Like I said, if YOU think that YOU can build a 650rwhp Mkiv Supra TT (stock twins), with a bone-stock 2jz-gte bottom end (even if you do cams, oversize valves or WHATEVER to the 2jz-gte head)...WITHOUT NO2 (and on gasoline not nitromathane ;) ), then I'd encourage you to try. You'd hold the record by a LONG shot, and I'm sure you'd sell that 'would-be-famous' Supra for whatever $ you put into it. Until then, you're doing nothing but spouting absolute nonsense. Really. I do wish you LOTS of luck...because you'll need LOTS of luck, and a heavy dose of magic too, because it's just not possible.

Good Point

How is that so rediculous? Did you know the turbo used on the evo stock which is a 16g boosts 19psi and the hot side and the ar housing and turbine wheel are smaller than the ct26 ? So why would a smaller turbo be able to put out more power? Maybe you need to clue yourself in on facts instead of what you want to believe. Also I dont know how afluent you are on turbocharging and boosting but the more pressure and heat you get the better AS FAR AS THE HOT SIDE IS CONCERNED. Now as far as oxygen is concerned you should be getting plenty as a turbo is designed to suck it in. I dont quite follow you on this. Could you please explain better? Remember a turbo mixes exhaust gases into the ambient air form the intake charge. So oxygen isnt a problem.

Huh? When did I say it was an additive? Pressure exists all around us.

BWAHAHAHA umm.. incase you didnt know hey are sequential turbos and in a sequential setup you add the psi on each turbo to determine the total psi. Ask any professional technician that. A matter of fact call toyota up right now and ask them. If they were boosting 40psi each that would mean the engine would have a total boost of 80psi. One turbine spins on the lower rpms and when that boost tapers off the other turbo kicks in and finishes the job throughout the rpm band. Thus rendering the turbo setup to be added because they are in sequence of each other.

I never said over sized valves. I said angle cut valves. Please brush up on your knowledge of machine work.

Again I dont need luck when its been done before with pure mathematics. Thats all engines are. Engines were built on the concept of mathematics. And so is every turbo system or blower system out there.

If you seriously tell me a mere 20psi to a ct26 is impossible while a 16g turbo can produce a 19psi stock then you sir are the laughing stock. I tell you what when I find that article I would appreciate it if you would renounce all your mubo jumbo. hahahha

Who is talking about the hot side? It's the compressor sides of the oem 2jz-gte turbos that are far out of their efficiency range at 40psi. The compressor wheel would be spinning so fast that friction with the air would produce more heat than dense airflow. In other words, beyond its efficiency point the turbo only heats the air - it doesn't force more oxygen into the cylinders.

Also be warned (again) that if you try to push 40psi from the stock twins they'll grenade. The shafts aren't thick enough to tolerate that much stress.
Upon which restroom wall did you read that 'gem' of turbocharging technology? :rolleyes: Do you even know what a turbocharger is? Based on your post, I seriously doubt it.
You said the pressure from two turbos running in parallel is additive. 20psi+20psi=40psi ... additive. Get it? ...and as a reminder, in response I said no way in hell.
Tell ya what sport...you call Toyota and you ask them. Or better yet, why don't you call up anyone that has ever built a bpu++++ Supra and ask them if 40psi can be produced by the stock twins. :)
The sequential system on the Mkiv Supra works (roughly) as follows:
1) Exhaust gasses from all 6 cylinders spool up one of the two identically-sized turbos...it produces boost all by itself until about 3500rpms.
2) At about 3500 rpms, the exhaust gasses are transitioned to run through both of the identically sized turbos, and they both run simultaneously to produce the total boost and the total airflow through the charge-air system.
In other words, the two identically-sized turbochargers work together to produce the cfm's necessary (for example) for 20psi while the engine spins at (for example) 5500 rpms on a bpu++++ Mkiv Supra.
I know EXACTLY what you said, since I have both a seven-angle job (cut on a Serdi machine) AND oversize valves on the 2jz-gte head that's in my Supra. YOU need to brush up on YOUR reading skills because I said no matter WHAT you do to the 2jz-gte head, you won't make 650rwhp using the oem twins alone.
Why is your math so far off then? 650rwhp with only the oem twins on a stock 2jz-gte has never been done, and it will never be done. Prove me wrong by either finding an example of someone that's already done it (not gonna happen), or buying your own Supra and making it happen, or stfu. Spreading your fantasy-land garbage 'information' about 650rwhp on stock twins is polluting this forum with nonsense.
I didn't say 20psi is impossible. I said 40psi is impossible with a stock 2jz-gte's oem twins, and I said that that turbo pressure is NOT additive. Just because ONE turbo alone can make 19psi, doesn't mean that two of them together on that same engine can make 38psi. Again, learn to read.

You're also wrong because men that are much more skilled and knowledgeable than you (apparently) are have spent thousands of $ and years of time maxing out what they could achieve with the oem twins before they went to a single turbo to get the results they were looking for. Open your mind and learn something! I really don't give a rat's @ss if you want to live in ignorance, but for the sake of the others on this forum that are trying to learn something, don't try and BS your way out of this. It's not about an ego trip, it's about learning. Ask some questions and I'll give you honest, complete answers. Try to BS and pretend you know what you're talking about and things are only going to get worse for you.

Also, none of what I'm saying is "mumbo jumbo". I've owned an Mkiv Supra since 1994, and I've been deeply involved in the Supra community since 1998. I've built SEVERAL bpu++++ and apu Supras. Have you ever even ridden in one?

good posts & discussion

cliffnotes

stock 2j turbos = 40psi = no
stock ct26 starts blowing hot air at 14psi
it could probly do 20 psi but there would not be any gains other than requiring a rebuild

my 2psi worth :)

So then you are telling me that a bigger turbo produces less power? Please tell me is that what you are saying?

And you know this how? Please submit a link for me where it says that the ct26 is rendered useless at 20psi. You do this I will shut up. I promise.

I think it was yo mamas. haha And likewise.

Umm you said boost isnt an additive. Which didnt mean what you just said. You should have said that the boost levels that each turbo puts out isnt a sum of each other. Which they are because they are sequential. As a mkiv owner you should know this. Now conventoional twin turbos such as on v8's or v6's arent sequential rendering the boost output the same as one turbos boost level. I think you are a little confused in this area.

I already have which is why I know. I wanted to know because a friend of mine wasnt sure if his ct26's were able to withstand more boost via his boost controller. So we called and talked to a technician. Which is why I told you to call them. Hey if the dealer is on my side along with a 20yr career technician for toyota then I have no problems haha. But the again you are probably a master tech for toyota and claim to own 2 mkiv's and a toyota team with lots of buddies who idolize you. Sounds about right?

Ok...

Ok then I never said bigger valves why would you just add that in there? That doesnt make any sense. And I noticed you entioned serdi machine. May I ask what kind?

Its not. Again let em use the example of the evo. A 2.0l with a single turbo @ 19psi puts out around 280hp. The 2jz which has a larger displacement and bigger turbo not to mention 2 of them can easily achieve a 600 benchmark.

I would also appreciate it if you could also submit a link for your rhetoric as well. And furthermore you dont need to act like a 5yr old kid. If you say you own a mkiv then i would think you would have enough self respect and maturity to have a formidable conversation or debate. You have around 10 posts I have around 10times that. I have never met someone on this forum who is so defensive as you are. I dont know if its because you have a smallpenis or you are you have small mans syndrome or what. But in all fairness to the forum I would appreciate it if you treated people with respect even though you dont agree with them. If you dont agree with someone then prove your point and do so in a mature and formidable fashion. Is that too much to ask?

O I can read perfectly fine. Its when people post things that dont make sense is when I have trouble reading. So youre saying 20 psi from a single ct26 isnt possible?
Let me educate you on the real world son. In order to gain any sort of respect form people it is earned not given. And when you start acting like and petruding yourself to be an a$$hole is when you are looked upon as one. All this flame talk isnt impressive behind a keyboard and computer screen. I can say anything I want over a freaking screen. Its much easier to lose face and act like a idiot then stay calm and focused and act like normal human beings. Can we please have a meaningful discussion about this or are you going to progress yourself to be an a$$hole? Please choose wisely.

Again, I'm saying the 2jz-gte oem twins can't push 40psi and they can't push enough air to produce 650rwhp either. That seems pretty clear to the others on this thread - why can't you seem to grasp that?

There is no such link. The TWO oem twins TOGETHER push 20psi just fine. Hell, you *might* even get one of the 2jz-gte's oem turbos to push 19 or 20psi on a 2jz-gte. But there's no way in the world that those two oem 2jz-gte twins will ever push 40psi. It just can't be done.

Seriously dude, you said "Remember a turbo mixes exhaust gases into the ambient air form the intake charge. So oxygen isnt a problem...". If that was anything but a joke, you really do have NO idea how turbochargers work.

Airflow is additive. Boost level is not. YOU need to get that straight.

Again, you're completely off base. Whether you run twin turbos conventional or sequential, they're both running together at the high end in both systems. It's also very easy to convert the Mkiv Supra's sequential system into a full-time parallel (TTC=true twin conversion http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/ttc/ttc.htm) ... if you perform this conversion, the 'conventional' twin turbos and the Mkiv's twin turbos operate identically... and you STILL won't make 40psi of boost.

Give me the """"technician"""s contact info. I'll be happy to educate him as well.

Unfortunately, many Toyota techs know little or nothing about the Supra. It's such a rare car that dealers' mechanics know very little about them. After you've worked on 10,000 Camry's and 20,000 4-runners, who can remember the ins and outs of the one or two Mkiv Supras a year that they might work on? How many dealers are there nationwide? ...and how many Mkiv Supra TT's were imported into the US between '93 and '98? ...and how many of those Mkiv Supra TT owners NEVER take their Mkiv Supras to Toyota techs because they have no idea how to work on them? You do the math...

Actually no. Fwiw, I'm just another guy that has studied up on the car that he owns, and tries to help fellow Supra owners.

It's simply an example of something you might do, in the extreme, if you were trying to get the 2jz-gte head to flow a bit more with the stock twins. If you want to eliminate that from the equation, then no problem. Go ahead. Use oem-sized valves. You still won't make 40psi or 650rwhp.

NO IT CAN'T! Lots of very skilled people have tried and it won't push more than 500rwhp. If the hard work of literally hundreds of Mkiv Supra owners and shops won't convince you, then buy a Supra and prove it! Until then, you're leading guys like Evilfurby down the garden path with misinformation to grandiose unrealistic expectations.

What link? You're the one that is trying to tell Evilfurby and everyone else here that a 97 Mkiv TT Supra can make 650hp with the stock twins and a stock shortblock. How can I send you a link to something that doesn't exist? It's never been done! Not even close. It's like you asking me to post a link to the dna code for a six headed unicorn. Sorry bub, I just can't 'cause there ain't no such thang. The burden of proof is on you to prove that 650rwhp on 2jz-gte oem twins only and oem shortblock is possible, as you claim.



There is a somewhat-related link that is somewhat relevant, but unfortunately it's down at the moment. When it was up it showed the very best-ever dyno runs for bpu++++ Mkiv Supras with the stock twins ...all in the high 400's rwhp range:

http://www.moreboost.org/turbo_detail.htm

...and there are many other forums and mailing lists out there dedicated to the Mkiv Supra. Why not join them and learn something? PM me if you'd like the links to them (I'm not sure if this forum allows links to competing forums or not).

I've repeatedly proven my point, and you keep trying to BS your way out of it. Back off and admit you're in over your head.

Get this through your head. I never said 20psi is impossible from either a single one or a pair of the oem 2jz-gte twins. I said 40psi is impossible from the oem twins. I also said 650rwhp is impossible using the oem twins alone. Why are you being so pig-headed about that?

I've done nothing other than provide hard data about why what you're saying is completely wrong. If you were even close to on-base I'd love to try to find some sort of middle ground where we could agree...but 650rwhp on oem 2jz-gte twins and an oem shortblock? ...give me a break.

Lol. Intentionally posting misinformation is a serious offense on most forums. If you don't have any idea how to answer a question, I'd advise you to stay off the thread.

Well there's a little more to it.

Bpu+++ Mkiv Supras often push more than 20psi of air, but there are diminishing gains due to the hot air problem.

With race fuel, these boost levels are possible without risk of rebuild.

To properly, adequately, and fully explain how a turbo works would take a book. No one person can fully explain how it works in a page on a forum. Its a very vague explanation. Does not a turbo mix exhaust gases with outside air which happens to be about 25% oxygen? If you say no to that then you have NO idea how they work. Yes I may have missed a ton of info explaining how they work but so have you in all your posts. The info is insurmountable.

Dont you need air to make boost(pressure)? So how can one thing that is essential be an additive and the other can not? Let me put this to you in laymans terms. You have a C17 which is equipped with 4 PW-100 pratt and whittney turbine engines. Now a turbine engine acts much like as a turbine used in a car. There are very many similarities and a few obvious differences. Now each PW-100 produces 41,000pds of thrust with a bypass ratio of 5.9:1 and overall pressure ratio of 30.8:1. So you mean to tell me that even though one turbine engine produces 41,000pds of thrust and you have 4 of them you only get 41,000pds of thrust total? Try telling that to my aerospace propulsion professor.

Heres another example. Take 2 fire hoses at the same pressure rate releasing the same fluid into a pool. Now just take one fire hose at the same pressure as the other 2 with the same fluid that is filling a separate but equal sized pool. Now tell me what pool will be filled with more water after the same time has passed? The answer is obvious. Now the water in the pool represents the air in the cylinders negated by pressure. It is because you have more than one hose(aka turbine) which adds to the pressure and the volume of water(aka air) that is entering the cylinders. One hose's pressure isnt the same as 2 equal hoses's pressure. Thats like saying My 2 supersoaker 1000's are the same as your 1 supersoaker 1000.

I guess your right here. But with a tech that has been with toyota for 20yrs and with over 10yrs of the 2jz being in existance you would figure he woudl know something about it. But 20000camrys is a headache to even begin to think of.

Again this is a whole point of a debate. You cant just say your point and then be like"ok now that ive said it bow down to me and back off." As much as you would like this to happen its not going to especially when you are wrong. hehe I know I am a stinker aint I? hahahaha

Now see that was nice. Keep that up.

You can get the most power from cam tuning. If you can get a cam that is specifically designed for boost which means the longest duration possible thats where you can get the most airflow. Angle cut valves have their effect when the valve is shut. IMO it is a great mod to have. It has even been known to create a small but noticeable venturi effect within the chambers for better and easier combustion.

First off nothing is impossible when it comes to motors and power. If you have the money you can make a ford pinto do 9's in the quarter mile. Trust me I have seen it. Secondly, because of that I havent led anyone down any wrong path. Maybe for cost efficiency I have, but if it was up to me I would just upgrade to one big turbo application.

Hey did we just not have a talk about the flaming? If you want to carry on flaming people you will get nowhere with your discussions. Again please try to have a formidable discussion with me. Thank you

Just because it hasnt been done before doesnt mean it cant be. Before the wright brothers invented the airplane people thought that flying was impossible. Boy where they wrong werent they? So just becasue you dont know of its existance doesnt mean it cant be done.

IN most forums flaming isnt tolerated period. You have made quite a debut here as someone who flames. The mods and everyone else is watching you. I on the other hand have been here awhile. I have admitted when I was wrong and I have had plenty of great discussions and debates with people. If I was full of BS and grandeur rhetoric I would have been gone long ago.

It's also a book you CLEARLY have not read yourself. NO, a turbocharger does NOT mix any exhaust gas with the outside air. The hot side (turbine) and the cold side (compressor) are completely independent of each other except for a solid, oil-cooled&lubed shaft on bearings which connects the wheels on each side. 100% of the exhaust gas that enters the exhaust housing leaves through the exhaust pipe. You'll find that, and much more newbie info on turbocharging here:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo4.htm

Whether you're talking about 328,000pds of thrust from four PW-100's, or 40psi on a stock 2jz-gte from its twin turbos, the result is the same...it's a goal that's beyond the capabilities of those devices.

No it's not. You're trying to say that two supersoaker 1000's (or two fire hose PUMPs) can flow twice as much water by pumping them at twice their optimal efficiency rate. Unfortunately that's not true and neither is producing 40psi from oem 2jz-gte twins.

I agree that you're stubborn. Imho you're also severely underinformed about turbocharging, which imho makes your conclusions about what's capable with a stock 2jz-gte and its oem twin turbos boarderline delusional.

If the world was filled with closed-minded know-it-alls like you, I'm not sure I would. Fortunately, most other folks actually appreciate it when an experienced resource shares facts and hard-earned knowledge.

First of all, the oem 2jz-gte cams ARE already designed for boost. Secondly, the oem 2jz-gte valves and valve seats ARE already angle-cut. Lastly, whether you put 256, 264, 272 or 280 degree cams on the 2jz-gte head, you're still not going to get 650rwhp out of a stock 2jz-gte with stock twins alone, on any octane of regular or racing gasoline. Not in a million years.

I agree with you on this one point BUT you said that a specific goal was attainable with a VERY tight set of conditions. With those conditions (650rwhp, oem 2jz-gte, stock bottom end, stock twins, no nos, gasoline), you've painted yourself into a corner - it just can't be done.

Pig-headed=stubborn. It's a common definition...and if the shoe fits, wear it.

The Wright brothers weren't constrained in their problem to try to force propellors that were designed to be most efficient producing 20 pounds of thrust if they needed 40...being engineers, they'd have known that spinning that propellor twice as fast won't produce twice the thrust. Again, you've painted yourself into a corner with this problem. An oem 2jz-gte's oem twins just won't and can't feasibly produce 40psi of useable & reliable boost. With those oem twins as the only horsepower adder, you'll never get 650rwhp out of a stock 2jz-gte either.

My posts are not intended as flames. They're intended to accurately and efficiently call out the misinformation you're attempting to spread. I encourage the scrutiny and involvement of the mods on this thread and any/all of my posts. I'd much rather be banned doing what I can to help the Supra community by calling out your misinformation ... than compromise my own integrity by pretending you didn't just lie about a Supra being able to make 650rwhp on stock twins and a stock block.

If the mods are the reasonable, knowledgeable people (and I assume they are), you're at a much greater risk of being warned if you don't come clean here.

FINALLY a glimmer of the REAL truth comes out!:bouncy:
That's not what you said. You said a '97 mkiv Supra Turbo, using it's oem twin turbos and a stock 2jz-gte block, "can easily squeeze out 650rwhp". In the quote above, it appears that you've admitted that, for all you know for sure, you were completely wrong when you stated that rwhp figure. I sincerely hope this means that we can end our ""formidable discussion"" :rolleyes: now.

just a question

whats the difference of the the CT26 turbo from a MR2 and a CT26 from a supra..

the CT26 from a MR2 is junk IMO.. CT20B is the 3rd gen 3sgte turbo and that still cant do more then 300whp.. on a 3sgte

whats with this 20-40PSI talk.. why do you care so much getting an riduculas amount of PSI on such a crappy turbo.. also to get that much PSI you will have to run high octane race fuel

do where the supra shines.. slap on one big turbo and gun it on the run.. just my 2 cents

Maybe that's partly why two of them together won't flow more than about 200rwhp above stock when the boost is raised...

Btw, upon further research, it turns out that SKILMATIC was misinformed about yet another item - the 2jz-gte's oem twins are CT12B turbos (not CT26s).
Well, I agree that 40psi on the oem twins is rediculous, but 20psi from them is a walk in the park. They may be relatively small, and perhaps not optimally efficient at high boost levels, but they'll push 20psi (and more) with a good degree of reliability.
Agreed.
That makes sense as well, but note that with 'only' 450rwhp a bpu++++ Mkiv Supra is still an awesome vehicle. When driven where it really shines (on a roadrace course), an Mkiv Supra at 450rwhp with a good set of tires is easily enough car for most intermediate-level drivers.

Likewise, yes they are independant of each other however, it still mixes the gases together. Hx gases as you should know are much better combustibles than o2. Therefore engineers know this which is why a FI system is used to do this. Now granted the hot side doesnt thrust that exhaust gas back into the intake charge cause as we all know that would be fatal to the engine. However, with the help of the EGR and the turbo and a wbo2 the sane amount of mixed gases enter the intake. Why do you think when you install a turbo on any car your intake charge temp increases? If the 2 are completely dissasociated form each other then your intake temp should remain the same but this is not true. The increase in temp is generated form the mixed gases coming from your exhaust. Maybe you shoudl read your own link a little better.

Now lets do the math on this one more time because I fear that you have missed this lesson. Now a PW-100 generates 41,000pds of thrust. If you have 4 of them you multiply 4x41000=164,000pds of thrust not 328,000. I have no idea where you are getting that number. When it comes to this analyzation they are congruent to each other.

Thats fair enough. However, I wouldn't go too far as to say I am delusional. Maybe optimistic is the key term here.

It is apparent to me that you dont know how to have a mature formidable discussion without letting your temper tantrums come into play. Maybe when one grows up and establishes an intellectual normality to have a proper discussion we can have a meaningful diatribe. Until then, better luck next time.

Now what does this have to do with cam tuning? I mentioned nothing of angle cut valves other than I asked you in an earlier post what kind of machine did you use and you have yet to answer me. I beleive in my last post to this matter I was discussing cams. Was I not?


Show me where I have placed any conditions on what I originally said? I beleive I said you COULD get 640whp out of the stock twins. Show me where I said word for word "you could do this or that with such and such?" I beleive if you look back in my earlier posts you will not find one thing where I said this can happen with any boundaries. Now I have put some comment on how this COULD be attainable but I never maped out any boundaries on what I said. I would appreciate it if you would admit you are wrong there too.

How old are you? 12? I would venture to say by your demeanor here you probably arent even old enough to drive a vehicle. Let alone own one; let alone own a supra.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You simply amaze me. You mean to tell me that if a fan spins faster and faster you dont feel the wind more and more? Just like if a turbine wheel spins faster and faster it doesnt create more pressure? Your last sentence basically says everything about you. You have not a clue on the actualities on how a turbo works or the familiararities of pressure and its effects. You see the faster a turbine wheel, fan, and propeller spins the more pressure and/or thrust it creates. This is like newbie info for common life dude. Kinda like when someone invented the wheel.

Well your fighting the wrong fight. One must chose his battles much more wisely. Furthermore, you can also point out misinformation in a much more integrity-like way. You only scrutinize yourself. IMHO, if one can have a meaningful mature discussion that one can make his point in a much more easier and deligent fashion.

Quote:

FINALLY a glimmer of the REAL truth comes out!

Again I have never said in my first posts about any cost boundaries. Find this and I will admit I was wrong.

Of course its not because I havent said it yet. I am glad you can see the computer screen.

Ok and your point is? I am glad you can repeat what I said.

You are the one who is completely wrong you said "you cant get 640whp out of the stock twins." Which in your later post you said you can. I stand by what I said. Just becasue you havent seen it doesnt mean it doesnt exist or that it cant be done. You agreed with me sounds like a concensus to me.

I was wandering when you were going to catch that. When you told me you owned a mk4 I didnt beleive you so then I wanted to talk some lingo. I wanted to test your knowledge of your own car you supposedly owned. Then you went on to claim you have built several bpu supras and etc etc. How come that a person who has supposedly built and modded several of these cars and then supposedly you own one yourself didnt catch that? I know the ct12's come with the 2jz, and the ct26's are on mr2's and the 7mg. Sounds liks someone just hit himself. hahahaa

oh damnnn i thought someone wanted to stick 2 ct26's on their 2j.. i didn't realise someone was under the impression they were stock

ct26 from the 7m is superior to the 3sgte ones
steel shaft
slightly larger

Yeah apparenetly pwpanas didnt know which turbos are which. He told me he owned a mk4 supra. So then I tested him to see if he knew about the car. So I purposefully said ct26 turbos were on the tock 2jz and they could produce a lotof power. Then he proceeded to debate with me on the amount of power they could produce and he never once exclaimed that what I said was wrong. I figure him being a mk4 owner would have caught something so easy.

Then he finally realized that his supposed mk4 didnt come with ct26's stock but rather c12's. This is all kinda fishy to me seeing as pwpanas supposedly owns a mk4 and has built severla bpu's and all the sudden dicovered that his stock twins werent ct26's. I simply let flamers dig their own ditch. It works everytime.

Ok junior...whatever. Do you really think that anyone else on this thread is dumb enough to buy your "yeah I always knew that" BS? Prove that you knew the turbos are 12Bs. As you say "post a link". Without that proof, I'm the one that brought that information to this thread and educated you about it. Until then, I was letting you believe the oem twins were ct26s so you could try to explain why no one has ever made 650rwhp with them. :D Perhaps some of your original miscalculations were due to the fact that you were WRONG about the size of the 2jz-gte's stock twins. Ignorance is forgiveable, so fess up.

Fwiw, my own Supra no longer has ct12b's, since I've upgraded to a single turbo. Here's some more 'education' for you: when you upgrade an Mkiv Supra Turbo, there are only two reliable choices: you either max the oem twins (bpu), or you chuck them out (apu). After hundreds of unsuccessful attempts by Mkiv Supra owners, it's been determined that there's no reliable way to upgrade the ct12b's to anything larger, using the 2jz-gte's ct12b housings. The shaft is just too thin to support bigger wheels.

Now that I've clued you in to what they are, you now call the oem twins ct12b's. I simply call them too small. :)
Dude you're the one that was confused (and apparently still are) about why an mk4 can't make 650rwhp with oem twins. Call them what you will, they won't make that much horsepower. Period.
Riiiight. You go ahead and keep telling people that turbos mix intake & exhaust gasses and that the mk4's oem turbos can put out 40psi and we'll see who ends up in the ditch.

Omg this is getting good. No, exhaust gas does NOT make a better combustible than O2. You need O2 for the fuel to burn!No they don't! Again, read the information at the 'howstuffworks' link! Either the newbie information at that link is beyond your capability to comprehend, or you're spreading more BS to try to cover your ass here. Which is it?

A turbo is a simple device. The exhaust spins one side, which powers the simple air compressessor for the intake side. That's it!!!WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. The intake charge temp increases because of air friction with the compressor wheel spinning at 100K+ rpms. Give it up dude.
Of course it does. And I'll say it slower this time so even you can understand. If you try to push a PW-100 PAST it's efficiency point by feeding it twice the amount of fuel, and spinning it twice as fast, it won't produce twice the amount of thrust. I'm using your analogy to show you why spinning the mkiv's oem twins twice as fast won't produce 40psi of boost like you said they could. This is almost funny...you've been proven completly wrong and you don't even realize it. I guess I'll have to explain things to you much more simply next time, using only very small words. :rolleyes: No, delusional fits MUCH better. The current record is just slightly over 500rwhp. 525rwhp would be "optimistic". 650rwhp represents breaking the current record by over 25%! To put this in perspective, this would be the same as you claiming you could sprint the 100m dash in 7.5 seconds. It's a d@mn joke...and you're CLEARLY, at the very least, partly delusional.This has nothing to do with temper...it has to do with your refusal to acknowledge when you're wrong...and you've been proven wrong on three major points to anyone that has read this thread carefully.You said "You can get the most power from cam tuning. If you can get a cam that is specifically designed for boost which means the longest duration possible...", so therefore YOU brought up the question of cam durations and cam tuning. In response I said, and I say again, no matter how you tune your cam and no matter which cam you use, you won't get 650rwhp out of a stock 2jz-gte and it's oem twins alone. Get it????I know you're trying to wiggle out of this one but you can't. Right here is where the conditions were firmed up and agreed to, YOUR post. YOU said "stock bottom end...with stock turbos...you can easily squeeze out 650rwhp". Those are the conditions and YOU set them.Now who's the FLAMER, flamer? "Formidable discussion" my @ss ... Lol. Ever hear of T04R.com? Mkiv.com? Supraforums? Mkivforums.com? The mkiv mailing list? Whether you're 12 or not, you've been proven wrong about basic turbocharging technology, and your statements about 650rwhp with the 2jz-gte and it's stock twins have also been proven wrong. Grow up and admit it.What I said was that if you take ANY fan or ANY pump already working at the exact RPM where it is most efficient, and then double that RPM, you WILL NOT get double the flow. By spinning the device faster, you're forcing it beyond it's efficiency point...and beyond that point you get diminishing returns for rpm increases. This is one of the key reasons that you'll never get 40psi out of the 2jz-gte's oem twins...and why you'll never get a stock 2jz-gte, using only its oem twins, to produce 650rwhp.Quit trying to cover your ass with more misinformation...when you post misinformation out of ignorance, that's forgiveable. But when you intentionally post misinformation to try to cover your ass, that's just plain wrong. If you continue to do so, I'll be the one contacting the moderators.I agree that no cost boundaries have yet been specifically imposed on our "formidable discussion". On the other hand, I would suggest it is VERY relevant that Evilfurby probably does not intend to spend an unreasonable amount of $ trying to max out the horsepower of his stock twins on his future Mkiv Supra.Look braniac, you TRIED to wiggle your way out of this "formidable discussion" by saying "...if it was up to me I would just upgrade to one big turbo application...", because you KNOW that you're WRONG about making 650rwhp with a stock 2jz-gte bottom end and its oem twin turbos.I did NOT say that you can get 640whp or 650whp out of the stock twins. Only YOU claimed that nonsense. If you MISREAD one of my posts, then quote it and I'll explain what I meant, again using very small words just for you.You made an ERROR assuming the stock twins were CT26s, in this post. As a result of that, together with your ignorance of turbocharging technology, you've dug yourself into a hole by claiming the 2jz-gte's stock twins can push 650rwhp.

Yup, Evilfurby asked about max power on stock twins, and then SKILMATIC started talking about how much power you can get from two ct26's right here:
http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/...27&postcount=5
If I were to guess why his math was so off-base when he came up with his 650rwhp figure, it could be partly due to his mistaken impression that the 2jz-gte's stock twins are ct26s...

Actually I didnt have to prove anything you did. You were the one who sat on your high horse and claimed you have a mk4 and built several of these cars. I just sat back and said "ok then lets see if he really does own one." I talked about somethign as so easy as the the turbo and considering you claimed you owned one you should have caught that little piece of information the first time you have seen it. But as you researched the internet which is all you can do you noticed that your supposed car didnt come with ct26's. This is just a priceless moment.

But you as a supposed mk4 owner didnt even know what kind of turbos it came with stock. And knowing you built several of these cars is very disconcerting because the worst thing is having a mechanic that doesnt even know which turbo is which work on your car. But maybe they wont detonate.

And how many motors have you been through?

Yes you need oxygen but you ask any technician they will tell you that hx gases are better combustibles. So what in your humble opinion is the most combustible gas on planet earth? Just answer that. Stop reading links because you seem to only be a bookie. You need to get out and get a little greasy to really learn.

Again, if its so simple then how come it took mankind almost 4thousand years to invent? Again stop reading what you see on the internet.

I don’t really want to get into this hp battle (although very informational).
But I really don’t see the stock twins pushing that much psi and rwhp. It’s not impossible but who the hell would want to stress the car so much? Pushing the stock tt limits it’s not good even with bpu's. I would probably start thinking of single or bigger tt upgrade around 500. Just my $0.02



Just for my info…anybody who is running stock twins,



How much are you pushing?

What is your limit? Where would you say “No More”.

As always I agree with you traffic. All I said was it is possible. Although i personally would just go to a big single turbo application I am just stating the possibilities.

You're not stating possibilities, you're stating idiocies.

You're correct. They can't. Not even close.

Omg not you too!? It's not possible! Really! Not even close! Hundreds of people have invested thousands of $ and literally years of time. There's just no way to get them to push more than very close to 500rwhp. In fact just getting to about 450rwhp (bpu++++) already costs at least a thousand $ (probably a lot more), AND you have to have a low-mileage Supra to get even that high.

Upon what data do you base your statement?

It really doesn't "stress the car" at all. With a mid-size or large single turbo and race fuel, an Mkiv Supra can handle 650rwhp without any problem.

I agree that pushing the oem twins to their limit of 450+rwhp will be hard on them. Getting them past 500rwhp is near-impossible; getting them to 650rwhp is both impossible and rediculous.

When I was running stock twins, I made about 400rwhp before I went to a single turbo, and that was full bpu+, with about 20 or 21psi of boost and race fuel. It doesn't matter where I would say "No More", because the stock twins do it for you. They say "No More" at about 25psi of boost and about 475rwhp at average-best, assuming your 2jz-gte is in very good condition and your turbos are low-mileage (ideally, less than 25,000 miles on them).

im not starting an arguement here.. but

a mk4 supra on a real race course was always raced with a different engine.. 3sgte in most of them.. and now 3uz-fe v8's..

partially because the races have hp limits.. 600ish hp
but the engine is lighter and their torque is much more useable then a 2jz's
the corolla rally car was pushing out 300whp with 650 lbs of torque =D

thats why i think a 2jz mk4 supra is the best at on "the run" races on highways.. you ll smoke so many people haha

I agree with you about the 2jz-gte - given the horsepower restrictions in those races, it's just not the optimal choice. On the other hand, you have to admit the vast majority of the drivers that have roadraced the mk4 hard core with 3sgte's are at a skill level quite a bit better than intermediate-level.

Folks, can we try really hard to keep it as civil as can be.

Thanks.

I really don't want to lock this thread up.



BTW Happy New Year to all!

Listen bub, YOU started all this by trying to tell Evilfurby that he could make 650rwhp with the stock twins of the '97 mkiv he's planning to buy. My only role here is to correct your misinformation.
I agree it's priceless. It's priceless because you're finally coming to realize you'll never make 650rwhp with a stock 2jz-gte and it's stock twins.

The ONLY replacement for these turbos comes from Toyota. In fact, the front ct12b on the 2jz-gte has different exhaust and compressor housings than the rear one! Again, any good mkiv Supra meachanic will tell you that you can either replace or dump the oem twins. They are not interchangeable with anything else in the "CT" product line.
Any technician that tells you that exhaust gasses are more combustible than the O2 in air, that technician deserves to loose their status. Oh, and although Hydrogen is very combustible, 1) it still needs O2 to burn, and 2) pure Hydrogen does not exist in the exhaust stream. Turbos don't mix exhaust gasses with intake gasses. Get a grip.
About the only thing I should probably stop reading on the internet is your posts. The turbocharger was invented in 1905...the technology is over 100 years old, and it's a simple air pump, powered by exhaust gasses. I'm certain it's you that needs to read MORE before you post any more misinformation.

Really? So your saying THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING hasnt happened yet you are automatically going to rule that out as never being possible? Gee I am so glad Einstein didnt have the same views you do when thinking about constructing the a-bomb. Furthermore, I am so glad every single inventor didnt have the same pessimistic views as you do. The supra has always been gravely underestimated in everything it does. And every single time when someone puts their mind to bringing out the best in the supra they have exceeded everyones expectations. You should have a little more respect for your supra as you claim you own. IMHO, someone that owns a supra would never have the pessimistic views such as yourself.

BWAHAHA, what does mileage have to do with anything? I am assuming you are talking about mileage on the car not the engine. Because you said low mileage supra and not the motor. Well hate to break it to you mileage has nothing to do with power unless its on the motor. You could have a supra with 300,000original miles on it and just installed a rebuilt 2jz in it and it will and can be very powerful.

Likewise.

You mean to tell me that 650whp has the same stress tensions as having 400whp? Again, your brilliance amazes me. Now yes granted IMHO the motor can handle alot of power with little to no problems, but it is a given fact that the more power you put out the more stress the motor goes under.

Not impossible. Improbable is the correct term. Nothing is impossible in this genre.

You SURE YOU OWN A MK4?

For the sake of the forum, I am going to lock this up.

Very good points were made and I think that the thread starter's original questions was pretty much taken care of.

If anyone has any questions, comments, or concerns; shoot me a PM.

It's not pessimistic, it's realistic. The inventor of the a-bomb wasn't on the same type of budget as someone like Evilfurby looking at maxing out the stock block, stock twins horsepower of a used Supra that he's planning to buy. Something tells me the US Government had just a few more resources to throw at a-bomb development lol. ;) For any reasonable amount of $, you're not going to make 650rwhp using the stock twins alone. In fact, I'll allow you an unreasonable amound of $. You'll never do it even if you spend $25,000.00 on the problem (not counting the cost of the car itself). Is that a reasonable budget, iyo?
I'm talking about mileage on the turbos. They just don't boost as well if they've got a lot of mileage on them.
I've already told you. I base my data on my own work on my own MK4, my work on other Mk4's, as well as the work of the dozens and dozens of other Mk4 owners that have worked on this problem and posted their results. Now, upon what do you base your BS 650rwhp on stock block & stock twins figure? Faulty mathematics? Lol.
No one is arguing with you there, but let's get back to the topic - is your assertion still that you can feasibly make 650rwhp with a stock 2jz-gte block and it's stock twin turbos?
Prove it then! This isn't a matter of odds like rolling some dice at Las Vegas. This is a matter of how much air those two little 2jz-gte oem twins can pump. They simply can't pump enough air to produce that much horsepower. It's beyond the capability of those devices, therefore it's not improbable, it's literally impossible.

Now if we go beyond the conditions of your earlier posts and add a big single turbo or a big shot of NO2+fuel to make the horsepower, then of course it can be done. But again, on oem twins and oem block alone, there's just no way.
Yes. I'm also sure that YOU shouldn't be posting on MK4 threads, because you're completely uninformed and unqualified to answer any questions about it.