New 1994 Twin Turbo Auto Trans, So Where to Start

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by consol1

I am looking for threads or advice from knowledgeable members of this form. I just purchased 1994 twin turbo from it's original owner. I want to know what mods I should start with…

http://mkiv.com/93-98-twin-turbo-faqs-2/#bpu1

Originally Posted by consol1

1. As much WHP that can be produced on Supreme Fuel…

What is “Supreme Fuel”? If that’s pump gas, then you need to reconsider this criteria OR forget the idea of getting a Supra. A Supra only *really* performs with high boost from the turbo(s)…and high boost on pump gas detonates. You need to consider methanol injection or race fuel if you want to experience the true performance capabilities of a 3L turbocharged engine.

Originally Posted by consol1

…2. As much WHP that is still useable and still dependable…

Sorry that’s a catch-22. The more hp you squeeze out of it, the less reliable it will be. You have to decide on your pain threshold and what you’re willing to give up for more hp.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Don't think about cost. I am not interested in money or cost here. I am interested in what works. In my experience people who chose a cheeper solution (because they are concerned about cost) are never truly satisfied nor does the solution work in the long run. That is not me.

Ok.

Originally Posted by consol1

I don't want people to advise me on what they have read or think would be cool. What they have seen in a mag or at a car show. I want to know from those who own, have done, and have learned what works... Please! You are the best source!!!!! You knowledge is the most valuable. …

I’m the owner of a heavily modified Toyota Supra Turbo and I’ve done (and re-done, and re-done) most of the work on it myself.

As I linked to above, you can either start with “BPU”, which is a good, proven set of mods. You can spend a lot of time tweaking BPU to get incremental performance improvements, but your next jump won’t be till you dump the oem twins and the oem fuel injectors and install a mid-size (~67mm) single turbo. However, there’s a big jump in cost with this step because you need a fuel system, a turbo kit, and some electronics to control it all. I can get you pointed in the right direction if you post up your thoughts on not using “Supreme Fuel” (whatever that is), and whether you think you want to make the jump straight to single turbo or if you want to try out BPU.

P.S. Agreed – I hope you did a compression test on that Supra you bought.

Here's a vid on doing a leakdown test (sorry about the ad):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgrfT0LFMhc
(it gets interesting at about the 7 minute mark for compression test, and about 13 minute mark for the leakdown)

Here's another vid (a bit more concise):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofSiT...feature=fvwrel

[consol1]

Supreme Fuel in my world is pump gas/91 octane. Thank you for the leak down videos. Did the compressions last night all between 172 and 174. That seems pretty good to me. I am under the impression 185 is the stock box number. Timing belt was just changed 6k earlier(good maintenance records on this baby).

I am shooting for the 5 to 6 hundred + in WHP. I was thinking about buying a new stand alone programable ECU with more than on map. Put the bolt on parts needed to run race fuel or 91 octane with 2 different maps.

I assumed that means the following:
Complete New Fuel System(pump/injectors/etc)
New Single turbo/manifold/etc
New exhaust down piping and all, shoot for 4"(lose the cats)
Intercooler with all piping(750 to 1000 WHP range maybe)
New radiator
Bigger Brakes
Rebuild the stock auto trans

Hold off on cams, valve springs, guides, and other internals for now.

Shoot for low 500 with the 91 octane and high 5 to low 6+ with race fuel and more boost in the map. And if I get addicted to this thing and want more.... then all I should have to do is get a bigger turbo and buy a race fuel farm(hehehe)

I have done meth injection before and still do on my 4Runner(I dropped in a 3rz with a small turbo). Not that happy with that system to tell you the truth. I fill that it is kind of a mickey mouse bandaid in opinion(not that I really have your experience in this arena) it's just more of a gut feeling.

Borg Warner has a new turbo out(within in the last year and a half). I think it has a titanium fan and is suppose to spool up quicker. I am reading and hearing roomers that by 3k it has strong pull up to 5.5K Still looking into the truth about that turbo.

So that is my starting point. I still want to use this car to drive around town when I want too. I realize that I may have to sacrifice something but I want an all around street car with some get up and freaking go!

What do you think. How far off the mark am I here?

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by consol1

Supreme Fuel in my world is pump gas/91 octane…

Unfortunately, that pretty much sucks. Most of the rest of the US has access to 93 octane (calculated using (R+M)/2), which is more in-line with slightly-more-than oem boost levels. If you’re talking about big(er) power (eg. 600rwhp), there’s no practical way to achieve that power level on pump gas.

Originally Posted by consol1

… Thank you for the leak down videos. Did the compressions last night all between 172 and 174. That seems pretty good to me…

Agreed.

Originally Posted by consol1

…I am shooting for the 5 to 6 hundred + in WHP…

Pardon me for being blunt, but that’s not specific enough. We can build your Mkiv Supra Turbo to the specs of 500rwhp OR 525rwp OR 550rwhp OR 575rwhp OR 600rwhp…but I can’t help you build it to a range. You have to pick one point …most likely the max you want to achieve… and then we build to that one spec.

Originally Posted by consol1

…I was thinking about buying a new stand alone programable ECU with more than on map. …

PLEASE “hold your horses”. We haven’t even decided on a power spec yet. No need to jump to specific components.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Put the bolt on parts needed to run race fuel or 91 octane with 2 different maps…

If 2 different boost levels is one of your requirements (for whatever reason – I may ask for the opportunity to talk you out of this)…we can definitely include that in the specs for the build. Again, let’s not jump to any specific solutions yet.

Originally Posted by consol1

… I assumed that means the following: …

Please don’t assume. Let’s work through this one step at a time.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Complete New Fuel System(pump/injectors/etc) …

Not necessarily. It depends what point you pick for your power goal.

Originally Posted by consol1

…New Single turbo/manifold/etc…

Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by consol1

…New exhaust down piping and all…

For 500rwhp+, then the oem exhaust will be a restriction. However, note that you can do about 400rwhp with the oem exhaust with no issue whatsoever.

Originally Posted by consol1

…, shoot for 4"(lose the cats) …

No – 4” is not required for 500rwhp. It’s also not required for 600rwhp. Another bad assumption on your part. I know you’re anxious to get going, but please keep in mind the Mkiv Supra Turbo has been built to pretty-much your specs (as I understand them so far) hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. I can get you where you want to go without any guesswork or redundant purchasing or any wasted $ in over-building certain components.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Intercooler with all piping(750 to 1000 WHP range maybe) …

What am I missing? Didn’t you say 500-600whp above? How did we suddenly get to 1000whp??????

Originally Posted by consol1

…New radiator…

Not necessarily. This depends on your application.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Bigger Brakes…

Not necessarily. This depends on your application.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Rebuild the stock auto trans…

Not necessarily. This depends on whether you pick 500rwhp or 600whp.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Hold off on cams, valve springs, guides, and other internals for now. …

Wow – man are you ever getting ahead of yourself!!!! Internals – no way – the oem internals are good to 1000hp! Why on earth would you *ever* consider replacing them? Not “for now” – never. Got it? Regarding the valve springs, it depends on your application.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Shoot for low 500 with the 91 octane…

Hmmm. Again, the Mkiv Supra Turbo’s 183ci (!!!) engine cannot run high boost on your local pitifully low 91 octane pump fuel. We need to figure out some alternatives here, unless you want your 173psi compression numbers to plummet to 120psi or less. You decide…ok? When you do, we’ll figure out how to tackle the fueling issue. Even water injection (or preferably water+meth) would go a long way towards addressing the issue. If you care to check, I bet race fuel is quite easy to come by in Las Vegas. Let me know if you need a hand with this.

Originally Posted by consol1

…and high 5 to low 6+ with race fuel…

Again, you need to pick a specific number. 595rwhp? *shrug*

Originally Posted by consol1

…and more boost in the map. …

Not sure what you mean here…the map of the ecu? We might end up using the oem ecu…so sure – it could have a larger map area than we end up using… (?) Clear up what you mean for me if possible…

Originally Posted by consol1

…And if I get addicted to this thing and want more.... then all I should have to do is get a bigger turbo and buy a race fuel farm(hehehe)…

If you think you might want more, and your budget is flexible, just pick a number – even if you think it sounds crazy. We can build to your spec. Best to get you what you want right up front, instead of rebuilding it later.

Originally Posted by consol1

…I have done meth injection before and still do on one of my 4Runners(I dropped in a 3rz with a small turbo). Not that happy with that system to tell you the truth. I fill that it is kind of a mickey mouse bandaid in opinion(not that I really have your experience in this arena) it's just more of a gut feeling. …

Don’t disagree there are cheesy meth injection systems out there. There are good ones too.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Borg Warner has a new turbo out(within in the last year and a half). I think it has a titanium fan and is suppose to spool up quicker. I am reading and hearing roomers that by 3k it has strong pull up to 5.5K Still looking into the truth about that turbo. …

Unless it’s been used on a 2jz-gte, I’d prefer you stay away from it. If your turbine wheel, compressor wheel, a/r ratios, etc. aren’t all matched to the application, a good turbo in theory might suck on an unusual application like a very high-boost potential 3L engine.

Originally Posted by consol1

…So that is my starting point. I still want to use this car to drive around town when I want too…

Ok, we’ll keep that in mind. If you pick 1000whp though (per your intercooler specs), don’t expect it to drive like a ‘benz. J

Originally Posted by consol1

…I realize that I may have to sacrifice something but I want an all around street car with some get up and freaking go!

Originally Posted by consol1

What do you think. How far off the mark am I here?

Not at all. Again, let’s take it one step at a time though (don’t get ahead of yourself).

[consol1]

What a reply. Thanks for the time!!!!!!!If I wasn't able to laugh at myself before our meeting... you have sure gave me a crash course. I am a type a personalty(go figure).

I know myself pretty well and one thing I am sure of is the kind of horse power that I will want in the end will not be the kind I can control at the beginning. But I am a quick study. That is why I jump so far ahead. There are some componets that would be foolish not to install from the get go. A perfect example is he ECU. Stand alone systems are more dependable then adding a chip or other programs in my opinion. Plus you can't run 2 maps on a stock system. The fuel system is another perfect example.

I want to have a machine that will run on 91 to 93 octane and higher octane race fuel (116 octane). The only way I know that can be done is with two different maps on one ECU. That is why I recommended two boost levels also. Map One lower octane, lower boost. Map Two high octane, higher boost

The reason I am being vague about WHP power is I do not know what the number is due to the two fuel octane choices.

I am grateful for your opinions, experience, time, and knowledge. I have asked for it and I hope I am showing you the respect you deserve(due to my request). The other thing that from my first email that may have been forgotten is one of my qualifiers, time is of the essence. I am not the typical project builder in this area. My time is what is valuable. That is why you see me push and plan fast. I have a limited amount of time research and to invest in my toy.

I myself will not be building this toy alone. So if you need more specifics, please give me the list one more time and I will do my best to follow your lead. Thanks for your patients.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by consol1

…I know myself pretty well and one thing I am sure of is the kind of horse power that I will want in the end will not be the kind I can control at the beginning…

Don’t forget you’re dealing with a variable horsepower car. Just because we build it for a particular horsepower level *max* doesn’t mean you can’t turn down the boost (for whatever reason).

Originally Posted by consol1

…Stand alone systems are more dependable then adding a chip or other programs in my opinion…

What could be more reliable than the thousands of engineering hours that Toyota put into the stock ecu. Depending upon your horsepower level, the oem ecu could still be the best (and most dependable) choice.
Also note that an aftermarket ecu requires a map – likely configured by someone other than a certified automotive engineer - and that map (or maps) most likely will not have even 1% of the time that Toyota put into developing the stock map. Please trust me that this is a major consideration for not only peak-horsepower tuning, but regular drivability. In fact, peak horsepower tuning is almost a trivial job compared to getting cold-starting, tip-in, and all-around drivability just right in various temperatures, humidity levels, and altitudes. In short, when you make the move away from the oem ecu, it is a *major* step. We can get you 600rwhp with absolutely no issue at all, with the oem ecu. Please consider this before we make the final call on dumping it.

Originally Posted by consol1

…Plus you can't run 2 maps on a stock system…

True, but I’m still not convinced that you will need to.

Originally Posted by consol1

…I want to have a machine that will run on 91 to 93 octane and higher octane race fuel (116 octane)…

I’m still not sure why. With 91 octane, you’ll probably be disappointed in the performance of your car. Race fuel is hard to find, and terribly expensive. To me, you still haven’t fully considered a solution that would allow you one map, full-time – either water+meth injection or E85.

Originally Posted by consol1

…That is why I recommended two boost levels also. Map One lower octane, lower boost. Map Two high octane, higher boost…

The oem ecu handles lots of different boost levels, depending on the rpm. Again, your 3L engine will not be that impressive with the relatively low boost level we’ll need to keep it at for 91 octane. It honestly won’t be that much better than a bone-stock Supra. Marginally quicker, sure. But night-and-day, not even close.

Originally Posted by consol1

…The reason I am being vague about WHP power is I do not know what the number is due to the two fuel octane choices. …

With 91 octane, your max will be about 450rwhp or so (through your auto trans) with a mid-to-large turbo (with a fair bit of lag). I doubt either would meet your expectations for most of the driving you would do...and please be realistic with me – you’re not going to run race fuel except for rare occasions. Again, I’ve been there and done that. It’s a pain in the butt. However, if you can honestly tell me you'll keep pure race fuel in your tank 33% of the time (or more), you'll change my mind.

Aside: The largest ‘record’ I’m aware of is nearly 700rwhp on 93 octane pump gas, with an absolute monster turbo...but it didn’t make barely any boost at all until about 6800 rpm, and then it went vertical. In the end, nitrous was used to spool this turbo, and it was rarely run on pump gas. When boost ‘goes vertical’, precisely controlling it is very difficult (especially if spooled by nitrous!)…and engine damage occurs if boost limits are exceeded for a given octane of fuel (yes, even with ‘built’ internals).

I appreciate your tight timeframe, your relatively unrestricted budget, and your high expectations. I sincerely believe we can meet all of them. If you’ll allow me, I can keep you from wasting your time (and money). Safety and an overall balanced design will be part of it too. Also believe me when I say, there really is no practical limit to the amount of horsepower you can run on the new C16 race fuel (or the VP Import 120+ octane before it), in a properly modified Mkiv Supra Turbo. This can be a reliable (albeit not necessarily comfortable-to-drive) ride at pretty much any number you care to put down. Try me.

Specifics needed:
- Your max rwhp number. (Again, we can turn down the boost limit at first, without changing anything else).
- Your application (drag racing or roadracing or drifting or autocross or top speed etc.).
- Will this car be 'shown', or will it be a 'sleeper'.
- Is E85 available nearby? Would you consider running it full-time?
http://www.e85locator.net/State%20Pa....html#LasVegas
- How much do you care about it being comfortable to daily drive. Eg. What if the auto tranny has very harsh shifts? What if it doesn't cold-start very well? What if it hesitates a bit on tip-in. What if the torque converter is high-stall and the engine revs and then you get a small bit of wheel spin when leaving most/all traffic lights (especially up-hill)? What if it runs well in the summer but doesn't run well in the winter, or vice-versa? These are all just examples - in general, I need to know how much we can turn this into more of a race car and less of a lexus-like Grand Touring sportscar...and still have you extremely pleased with the results.

[consol1]

Ok Let me give you some more information. Thanks for the link to E85 locations. If the car was going to stay in Las Vegas, that might be an option. The car will spend most of it's time in SoCal, so that is an issue according to the link you provided.

I agree that I will be disappointed with the performance of 91 octane once we try it. I am positive you are correct that I will want to run race full all the time after I put in in that tank. But we are looking at $9 plus dollars a gallon.

I want this to be able to have daily drivability on the street. Yes I want it to be some what of a sleeper. It is red and will be blacked out with Ridox side skirts, Trial rear, HKS replica carbon lip, 98 front bumper, 98 lights,(front and Back), painted carbon oem hood, painted carbon hatch, all lexan(tented) windows and no wing. I will shave approximately 340 plus lbs with some other mods.

Drag racing is the main focus but I will have an adjustable suspension so I could take the occasional winding road. I want to surprise the un aware muscle and exotic guys. Harmless fun. This car in my mind is perfect for this.

I understand we don't have to build up the tranny but if I am going to 650 plus WHP with a big turbos and race fuel, changing the torque converter stall speed sounds likely. I am very very hesitant about water injection. I have had serveral bad experiences with the two top of the line systems. Fried one 3RZ due to a failure(with all the redundant safety features).

E85 may be another option on another map(you are thinking there he goes again!!! dumping the stock ecu and making maps) There is no access to E85 where I'm at in the in SoCal (according to the link).

So to answer the questions:
-Max WHP 750 will probably make me happiest but I would settle for 650
-Drag with the occasional winding road cruse
-Somewhat of a sleeper
-I could possibly make E85 a reality with a little home work
-Harsh shifter no biggie
-I want to try to limit the wheel spin as much as possible(thinking sleeper)
-Cold start is no biggie
-More of a race car is acceptable for me but I still want it to be sleepy if possible

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by consol1

Ok Let me give you some more information. Thanks for the link to E85 locations. If the car was going to stay in Las Vegas, that might be an option. The car will spend most of it's time in SoCal, so that is an issue according to the link you provided.

I agree that I will be disappointed with the performance of 91 octane once we try it. I am positive you are correct that I will want to run race full all the time after I put in in that tank. But we are looking at $9 plus dollars a gallon.

I want this to be able to have daily drivability on the street. Yes I want it to be some what of a sleeper. It is red and will be blacked out with Ridox side skirts, Trial rear, HKS replica carbon lip, 98 front bumper, 98 lights,(front and Back), painted carbon oem hood, painted carbon hatch, all lexan(tented) windows and no wing. I will shave approximately 340 plus lbs with some other mods.

Drag racing is the main focus but I will have an adjustable suspension so I could take the occasional winding road. I want to surprise the un aware muscle and exotic guys. Harmless fun. This car in my mind is perfect for this.

I understand we don't have to build up the tranny but if I am going to 650 plus WHP with a big turbos and race fuel, changing the torque converter stall speed sounds likely. I am very very hesitant about water injection. I have had serveral bad experiences with the two top of the line systems. Fried one 3RZ due to a failure(with all the redundant safety features).

E85 may be another option on another map(you are thinking there he goes again!!! dumping the stock ecu and making maps) There is no access to E85 where I'm at in the in SoCal (according to the link).

So to answer the questions:
-Max WHP 750 will probably make me happiest but I would settle for 650
-Drag with the occasional winding road cruse
-Somewhat of a sleeper
-I could possibly make E85 a reality with a little home work
-Harsh shifter no biggie
-I want to try to limit the wheel spin as much as possible(thinking sleeper)
-Cold start is no biggie
-More of a race car is acceptable for me but I still want it to be sleepy if possible

Ok thanks for the additional info. I'll mull over it for a bit and get back to you with some recommendations (or perhaps some additional questions).