e.g.r block off plate

cre · 11-12-2009, 07:06 PM

That's a waste of effort really. These fail so infrequently that the benefits (reduced engine temps, higher spark advance, reduced knock) outweigh the potential headache, IMO... especially on an engine which likes to go through head gaskets

. Disconnecting the vacuum lines doesn't mean the system won't vent, a broken actuator will leak regardless, a block off is the only way to fully ensure closure. Otherwise, you still need to diagnose the system if you have related problems.

You're also assuming that people who come here for help have experience with this kind of thing. Most don't have that much and as such shouldn't be encouraged to make changes they don't understand both the pros and cons to.

Pros: Reduced engine temps, better fuel economy (minimal on MKIII's), higher spark advance, reduced knock. These are all HUGE at mid-high loads when the combustion cylinder temps are the highest and the engine is more prone to knock.

Cons: If it leaks, your car will have issues at idle, possibly while it's warming up and it will cost you some power at WOT; it's not pretty; and it can be a pain in the ass to work around if the engine is still in the car... I HATE that part.

EDIT: Oh, it's not just the way things are over there... Over here it's much the same. A long time ago the old muscle car guys decided that anything they didn't understand and absolutely ANYTHING called an emissions device was bad... let's just forget the whole thing about science and 40 years of continued research and developments... Ignorance is not something to be proud of, yet it seems so many people like to wear it as a badge.

two-step-n · 11-13-2009, 02:49 AM

thats the 2nd egr to stick on me so i didnt wanted it anymore and it looks better without one i think! I also don't need to worry about emissions anymore because the car is registered up North where emission testing isn't required.

cre · 11-13-2009, 03:17 AM

You said it was a weekend toy, so I honestly am not concerned about its longevity... it's the daily drivers which see the most wear. I'm not ragging on you in your posts... just making sure others know that your build is not necessarily what's best for their purposes and why.

evosupra · 11-13-2009, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre

That's a waste of effort really. These fail so infrequently that the benefits (reduced engine temps, higher spark advance, reduced knock) outweigh the potential headache, IMO... especially on an engine which likes to go through head gaskets

. Disconnecting the vacuum lines doesn't mean the system won't vent, a broken actuator will leak regardless, a block off is the only way to fully ensure closure. Otherwise, you still need to diagnose the system if you have related problems.

You're also assuming that people who come here for help have experience with this kind of thing. Most don't have that much and as such shouldn't be encouraged to make changes they don't understand both the pros and cons to.

Pros: Reduced engine temps, better fuel economy (minimal on MKIII's), higher spark advance, reduced knock. These are all HUGE at mid-high loads when the combustion cylinder temps are the highest and the engine is more prone to knock.

Cons: If it leaks, your car will have issues at idle, possibly while it's warming up and it will cost you some power at WOT; it's not pretty; and it can be a pain in the ass to work around if the engine is still in the car... I HATE that part.

EDIT: Oh, it's not just the way things are over there... Over here it's much the same. A long time ago the old muscle car guys decided that anything they didn't understand and absolutely ANYTHING called an emissions device was bad... let's just forget the whole thing about science and 40 years of continued research and developments... Ignorance is not something to be proud of, yet it seems so many people like to wear it as a badge.

No offense to your post there.... but I strongly disagree ! If the block off plates are installed correctly with a coated cometic gasket. they will never leak. And there are 2 plates to install not just one. As far as the warm up or power at Wot, no problem when running stand alone fuel management. and if your exhaust is big enough, heating up is not an issue. If you convert your pulley fan to electric fan it will stay alot cooler. FMIC will help too.

cre · 11-13-2009, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evosupra

No offense to your post there.... but I strongly disagree ! If the block off plates are installed correctly with a coated cometic gasket. they will never leak. And there are 2 plates to install not just one. As far as the warm up or power at Wot, no problem when running stand alone fuel management. and if your exhaust is big enough, heating up is not an issue. If you convert your pulley fan to electric fan it will stay alot cooler. FMIC will help too.

You need to reread this whole thread... We were talking about the EGR actuator leaking... dunno how you got that actuator = block off. Again, no idea what the hell you're talking about with warm up and WOT... you're lost sir.

Oh, and electric fans don't cool the gasses IN the intake... sheesh. Sleeping at the wheel?

two-step-n · 11-13-2009, 05:30 AM

my buddy has a 7mgte swapped into a 88 toyota pick up with the same block off plate now for about 6mons and never got one leak so far! its also driven everyday! but yeah it would suck if it started to leak because its not ez to get back there!

MA70-3.0GT · 11-13-2009, 01:21 PM

Whoo, cre after reading how this thread's developed I have to agree that EGR is not as widely understood as I thought & anyone who's in doubt would do well to read your posts.

What I was saying about disconnecting the actuator pipe before a failure occurs I stand by though (not that I'm recommending it for the Supra, in fact bearing in mind the 7M's headgasket appetite, I'd say it's a rather bad idea for a regular driver) just as a general "prevention is better than cure" solution on vehicles that can be run without failing emissions, especially diesels on which the EGR more readily fails due to particulate content in the exhaust), in my experience the majority of EGR leaks are caused by a dirty & sticking valve or actuator & not by any mechanical failure.

I suppose I'm just a bit lazy where a daily plodder of a diesel like the pajero's concerned & really the advice should be "if it's broke DO fix it" for any vehicle, but like many I'm guilty of just running something like that as it is, so long as it passes emissions. Incidentally, when I showed the guy that's having the Pajero from me I hooked the EGR back up & it still works! Anyway that's enough rambling from me, back onto supra EGRs...

cre · 11-13-2009, 10:15 PM

Personally, I would swap in a JDM ECU if running without the EGR. The differences in the open loop operation may be significant enough to have a decent effect on longevity... over a couple years I wouldn't expect to see much but over the next 20, maybe. The difference in the EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on a USDM with EGR and then with it removed (but still running the USDM ECU) are vastly different; I've seen studies with logs showing anything from 50°F up to 200°F in increased exhaust gas temperatures (not Supra specific, but it should serve as ample warning)... think about how much hotter it is in the cylinder when you reach the hottest part of the burn.

On most newer vehicles which monitor EGT it is usually required that you remove or recalibrate the EGT sensor to present the ECU with false readings which match the specified. This is done by either replacing the sensor with a specific value of resistor, adding a resistor in series with the sensor (if the sensor uses a NTC type thermistor) or the replacement with an alternate sensor which operates on a different scale (necessary with PTC type sensors). Older vehicles the resistor replacement is usually fine as the ECU doesn't care if the signal is static; newer vehicle ECUs often check the readings of the sensor against an actual table in which case simply swapping in a resistor is not an option. These sensor readings are used to determine the best adjustments for cooler temperatures with minimal power loss.

Many newer vehicles *appear* not use EGR systems. This is due to new methods of introducing those same inert gasses and better ways of controlling them such as monitoring exhaust temps and using variable valve timing to allow exhaust to flow back into or remain in the cylinder on the exhaust stroke or immediately thereafter... and guess what, newer JDM vehicles do employ these methods (probably more due to economy benefits than emissions but they both go hand in hand here).

Now don't get me wrong... I don't care at all if anyone wants to remove it or disable it; I just want them to know all the angles before they do and make sure people aren't just telling them to get rid of it just because "everyone else is doing it" or "that dragster don't got it".

If you feel the need to advocate a change to someone else's vehicle (and no, no one in this thread was doing so) it's only right you give them the full details, especially when the side effects could be detrimental.

11-12-2009, 07:06 PM	#1
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	That's a waste of effort really. These fail so infrequently that the benefits (reduced engine temps, higher spark advance, reduced knock) outweigh the potential headache, IMO... especially on an engine which likes to go through head gaskets . Disconnecting the vacuum lines doesn't mean the system won't vent, a broken actuator will leak regardless, a block off is the only way to fully ensure closure. Otherwise, you still need to diagnose the system if you have related problems. You're also assuming that people who come here for help have experience with this kind of thing. Most don't have that much and as such shouldn't be encouraged to make changes they don't understand both the pros and cons to. Pros: Reduced engine temps, better fuel economy (minimal on MKIII's), higher spark advance, reduced knock. These are all HUGE at mid-high loads when the combustion cylinder temps are the highest and the engine is more prone to knock. Cons: If it leaks, your car will have issues at idle, possibly while it's warming up and it will cost you some power at WOT; it's not pretty; and it can be a pain in the ass to work around if the engine is still in the car... I HATE that part. EDIT: Oh, it's not just the way things are over there... Over here it's much the same. A long time ago the old muscle car guys decided that anything they didn't understand and absolutely ANYTHING called an emissions device was bad... let's just forget the whole thing about science and 40 years of continued research and developments... Ignorance is not something to be proud of, yet it seems so many people like to wear it as a badge. Last edited by cre; 11-12-2009 at 07:10 PM.

11-13-2009, 01:21 PM	#7
MA70-3.0GT 12psi boost Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Crewe, England Posts: 356	Whoo, cre after reading how this thread's developed I have to agree that EGR is not as widely understood as I thought & anyone who's in doubt would do well to read your posts. What I was saying about disconnecting the actuator pipe before a failure occurs I stand by though (not that I'm recommending it for the Supra, in fact bearing in mind the 7M's headgasket appetite, I'd say it's a rather bad idea for a regular driver) just as a general "prevention is better than cure" solution on vehicles that can be run without failing emissions, especially diesels on which the EGR more readily fails due to particulate content in the exhaust), in my experience the majority of EGR leaks are caused by a dirty & sticking valve or actuator & not by any mechanical failure. I suppose I'm just a bit lazy where a daily plodder of a diesel like the pajero's concerned & really the advice should be "if it's broke DO fix it" for any vehicle, but like many I'm guilty of just running something like that as it is, so long as it passes emissions. Incidentally, when I showed the guy that's having the Pajero from me I hooked the EGR back up & it still works! Anyway that's enough rambling from me, back onto supra EGRs... __________________ '89 MA70 Supra GT aero 3.0turbo JDM, Rebuilt motor, K&N intake, 3" stainless turbo-back. New turbo and braided line kit... '89 Honda NC27 400, NC23 cams, open pipe, PC36a shock & possibly Showa USD forks... '83 Yamaha 29R XJ750E-II, number 69 off the line, only runner in the country? Original except Koni shocks '95 Honda PC26 CB500R, Winter hack, hateful, trying to sell it I'm not paranoid, they really ARE after me!!!

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11-13-2009, 02:49 AM	#2
two-step-n 3" Exhaust Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: mesa az Posts: 51	thats the 2nd egr to stick on me so i didnt wanted it anymore and it looks better without one i think! I also don't need to worry about emissions anymore because the car is registered up North where emission testing isn't required.

11-13-2009, 03:17 AM	#3
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	You said it was a weekend toy, so I honestly am not concerned about its longevity... it's the daily drivers which see the most wear. I'm not ragging on you in your posts... just making sure others know that your build is not necessarily what's best for their purposes and why.

11-13-2009, 05:30 AM	#6
two-step-n 3" Exhaust Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: mesa az Posts: 51	my buddy has a 7mgte swapped into a 88 toyota pick up with the same block off plate now for about 6mons and never got one leak so far! its also driven everyday! but yeah it would suck if it started to leak because its not ez to get back there!

11-13-2009, 10:15 PM	#8
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	Personally, I would swap in a JDM ECU if running without the EGR. The differences in the open loop operation may be significant enough to have a decent effect on longevity... over a couple years I wouldn't expect to see much but over the next 20, maybe. The difference in the EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on a USDM with EGR and then with it removed (but still running the USDM ECU) are vastly different; I've seen studies with logs showing anything from 50°F up to 200°F in increased exhaust gas temperatures (not Supra specific, but it should serve as ample warning)... think about how much hotter it is in the cylinder when you reach the hottest part of the burn. On most newer vehicles which monitor EGT it is usually required that you remove or recalibrate the EGT sensor to present the ECU with false readings which match the specified. This is done by either replacing the sensor with a specific value of resistor, adding a resistor in series with the sensor (if the sensor uses a NTC type thermistor) or the replacement with an alternate sensor which operates on a different scale (necessary with PTC type sensors). Older vehicles the resistor replacement is usually fine as the ECU doesn't care if the signal is static; newer vehicle ECUs often check the readings of the sensor against an actual table in which case simply swapping in a resistor is not an option. These sensor readings are used to determine the best adjustments for cooler temperatures with minimal power loss. Many newer vehicles appear not use EGR systems. This is due to new methods of introducing those same inert gasses and better ways of controlling them such as monitoring exhaust temps and using variable valve timing to allow exhaust to flow back into or remain in the cylinder on the exhaust stroke or immediately thereafter... and guess what, newer JDM vehicles do employ these methods (probably more due to economy benefits than emissions but they both go hand in hand here). Now don't get me wrong... I don't care at all if anyone wants to remove it or disable it; I just want them to know all the angles before they do and make sure people aren't just telling them to get rid of it just because "everyone else is doing it" or "that dragster don't got it". If you feel the need to advocate a change to someone else's vehicle (and no, no one in this thread was doing so) it's only right you give them the full details, especially when the side effects could be detrimental.