Wait a second, I never said I have or am going to buy a Supra Turbo with a W58, lol. I know that the V160 is the ultimate tranny for the Supra Turbo, no doubt about that. Reason why I asked is because, I have the option of buying a stunningly beautiful JDM '93 RZ 6MT BPU++ or wickedly beautiful JDM '95 SZ turned RZ 5MT APU+. The '95 Turbo with 5MT just makes me wonder what the torque and HP characteristics are since it's unusual for the "Big Boss" GTE to be mated to what was designed for the "Boss" GE. I'm already leaning towards the '93 but, it's still a hard choice to make...

The previous owner of the '95 Supra clearly had the money to buy a Getrag if he wished but, since he didn't, perhaps it was built stronger or just his preference...

Glad you're leaning towards not buying the SZ->RZ APU+ "Supra Turbo with a W58" 5MT ;) . I'd be worried about what else wasn't upgraded on the SZ, like the brakes, ignition, suspension, etc.

Hehe, thought you'd say that. Alas, I am very impressed by the quality tuning work done on the Red Supra. Everything you mentioned has been given careful attention to. Would you like to know the list of mods to get an idea of what exactly has been done?? (You know you want to...:grinking:) Of course, I'll give you the full run down of the RZ 6MT's upgrades as well which are oh, so nice :bouncy:

Absolutely! :) ...looking forward to it.

Glad to hear it - here you go:)

'93 Supra RZ 6MT upgrades:

• ONE OWNER,
• FULL BODY KIT,
• HKS MUFFLER,
• BLITZ AIR FILTER,
• APEX'i REV & SPEED METER,
• HKS COIL OVER SUSPENSION KIT,
• RACING BLOW OFF VALVE,
• SPARCO OZ RACING "SUPERTURISMO" RACING SEAT X 2PCS,
• ALUMINUM 3 LAYER RADIATOR,
• BOOST GAUGE,
• TURBO TIMER,
• MOMO RACING STEERING WHEEL,
• 18" RACING ALLOYS

Mileage is a super low 65 000kms (sorry, not sure what that is in miles but either way, it is very low!!) As it is now, she produces an even bigger than stock HP at 336+.

'95 Supra RZ 5MT upgrades:

• FULL BODY KIT,
• GANADOR CARBON AERO MIRRORS,
• RACING BRAKE PADS,
• STAINLESS MESH BRAKE LINE,
• GT WING,
• LED TAIL LIGHT,
• HKS F-CON IS FUEL AND IGNITION TIMING COMPUTER,
• SARD RACING FUEL PUMP,
• TRUST RACING INTERCOOLER,
• TRUST OIL COOLER,
• HKS EVC5 BOOS CONTROLLER,
• FRONT PIPE,
• TRUST AIR FILTER,
• MUFFLER,
• OHLINS COIL OVER SUSPENSION,
• TRD 1,5WAY LSD,
• RACING CLUTCH,
• RACING BRAKE PADS,
• BRIDE "LOW MAX" HYBRID RACING SEAT,
• CARBON FIBER DETAILING ON THE DASH,
• TRD 320KM/H SPEEDOMETER,
• WORK XD9 18" RACING ALLOYS

Engine has just 63 000kms on the clock (super low!!)
Setup for a maximum of 1.2kg boost. Currently running at 1.0kg on stock twins (sorry, not sure about the PSi equivalent...). Clearly pushing out even more serious power than she does stock although I'm not sure of the actual figure.

As you can see they are both modified but, the red one has more mods. Excellent parts from excellent brands, professionally installed and setup. They are both giving me almost sleepless nights with excitement :x:

Actually the oem Mkiv Supra Turbo typically dyno'd at about 320rwhp brand-new (US-spec)...which is about 375hp at the crank. Really.
Other critiques (just being honest here): This really is just a 'bpu' Supra, missing a downpipe, missing a BCC or FCD, and missing a boost controller. You'll need to add those two mods just to get it up to 'stage 1' - right now it's at about stage 0.5 . Sorry.
Hmmm - you did say this is an SZ->RZ conversion, right? Did they change out the whole engine to a 2jz-gte, or did they just add an aftermarket turbo kit? Either way, why isn't that mod listed? Did they put an oem TT ignitor and coil packs in? If not, how is that FCON driving the spark?
Also, what about the inferior n/a brake calipers and inferior n/a abs system...were those upgraded too, and if so why aren't those mods listed? {I do agree the coilovers on this one are awesome, but why is he still running the oem sway bars?}

Pardon me for sounding a bit harsh - I'm just trying to ensure you see the full picture before you spend any of your hard-earned money on either of these two Supras.

Remember, these are JDM spec Supras so, the '93 was rated at 280HP and we all know that was just because of the "gentlemens agreement". It had considerably more than that and this Supra, whilst lightly modified certainly produces more power than stock, as I said. No need to apologise dude, BPU it is - and with such power, I don't need to upgrade it anymore but, would like to :) Sorry, I'm not sure if it has an FCD - it may very well have one and the dealer forgot to mention it then again maybe it doesn't. Do coil overs fall under just BPU and not the + category?? The mods it has are great as is, I'm happy with them and surely will be able to take it from there (boost controller, down pipe, etc.) What it has now are expensive (especially the rims, HKS coil overs and other aesthetic upgrades) which saves me cash if I buy it. Another thing is, it is in immaculate condition, body, interior, and of course engine which carries so much weight when it comes to making a decision on a 2nd hand car and more so on an all out super car like the Supra. Seeing is believing...

Peace of mind...

Yes, the '95 is a conversion. I didn't list it because I already told you about it prior to the mods list. No, not just a bolt on turbo (NA-T), it's a full on 2JZ-GTE complete with (OEM) coil packs and ignitor hence it's now RZ grade save for the missing Getrag. Dealer gave me the full run down and also stated that it was professionally installed by a tuner who specialises in such tuning. He didn't say anything about the calipers being upgraded so, they could or could not have been. Again, it's JDM so, both these Supras would share the same brakes since Toyota only changed the JDM TT to big brakes after 1995. the racing brake pads would make a tangible difference though. Whether they're pre or post '95, Supra brakes have always been solidly good :) If need be, a brake upgrade is always possible. He didn't say anything about the ABS itself however, I think the SZ from '95 and up had been upgraded with better ABS than they had originally. He did say that a traction control system is in place and operates well. How do you know he's running the OEM sway bars??

No stress, I appreciate you trying to draw my attention to specifics that need attention in the '95 especially. Verdict is this: the '93 is a full on Supra RZ 6MT and I have no reservations about anything done to her. Nice, sensible upgrades tastefully done and it's in immaculate condition. My concern lies mainly with the '95 RZ 5MT because, as this discussion dictates, much attention had to be paid to specifics to get the car to stand on equal ground with the '93 RZ 6MT in all respects. Still a tough choice to make because, the '95 is done VERY well indeed. Trust me, I've seen many Supras and that one certainly stands out in the modification/conversion territory and is certainly worth deep consideration...those upgrades are worth a great deal of money and could save me a lot in that case.

BPU mods are horsepower-related only. Suspension is a separate category of modifications.
Pardon me for correcting you, but it's not really an RZ till the calipers, full ABS system, and differential are upgraded too. All of these SZ components are significantly inferior to the RZ/TT's.
Hmmm....could you provide supporting documentation for that? US-spec Mkiv's had 4-piston front brake calipers since '93.5. I find it very strange that 'yota would have short-changed the JDM TT like that.1) What is a "racing" brake pad? Sounds pretty subjective if you ask me. 2) There's no substitute for a bigger rotor. 3) (And most importantanly) there's no substitute for a 4-piston brake caliper over a 2-piston.
Disagree. For what it's worth, I would not roadrace a ~3500 lb. Mkiv Turbo with n/a brake calipers - I honestly believe it would be dangerous and stupid (even if the pads were hand-crafted by Zeus himself).
Again, please provide a link to support this. In the US, the '96 Mkiv TT was actually downgraded from quad independent ABS to triple independent ABS (rear wheels use same ABS valving post '95). To me it seems highly unlikely 'yota would downgrade the US ABS the same year they upgraded Japanese-spec ABS.

How do you know he's not, if this wasn't in the list of modifications?
Disagree, imho.

I agree with you that the mods that are on both Supras were chosen with some degree of forethought, and may very well have been installed properly. In fact, a few of the mods are downright impressive (eg. the Ohlin shocks). HOWEVER: I do disagree with the subjective interpretation of the overall results, since the '93 won't be a full TT/RZ until the transmission AND differential, calipers, and ABS system have been addressed ... and the '95 won't be full BPU until it has a downpipe and some way to raise the oem boost level.

If I had to pick one of the two based on what you've posted, I'd go for the 93.5 TT 'almost-BPU'...assuming the prices are fair for both. With the '95 SZ->RZ partial conversion, you'd still be getting an n/a Mkiv with a transplanted engine, and too much $ put into the suspension for your application (just assuming about your application - please let us know what it is), imho.

To answer you about the brakes especially, the dealer told me many things about the cars. The '95 may very well have received a full brake upgrade to match the actual RZ's system. Unfortunately, I cannot see it personally since they're in Japan and there is a possibility that the dealer may have left out a few details. This is evident by his not mentioning certain parts that I could see from the pictures. You made an assumption about the sway bars. I didn't assume he upgraded them or not. I'd rather find that out from the dealer. No train smash there.

Aha, it seems you were misinformed about JDM Vs. USDM Supras, imho. The link you requested is here: www.mkiv.co.nz
The original Japanese TT mkiv Supra came out with the same brakes as the NA from May 1993 to May 1995. After May 1995 Toyota having realised this was a bad move decided to start using the BIG brakes that were always on the export model TT Mkiv from when it was first made. The move to big brakes on the Japanse Mkiv TT's was a piecemeal affair with only some TT's having the big brakes and only after May 1995.
The BIG brakes are an straight bolt-on although you will have to either bend the backing plates out of the way a bit or remove them entirely as I did. You can buy second-hand ones from the USA (where all the TT's have them) or even purchase new ones from Toyota as they were available on the post May 95 Japanese Mkiv's.

Your statement about "too much money put into the suspension" is far off. You can clearly see from the mod list that, the '95 Supra has APU engine upgrades. More power was clearly an emphasis with necessary attention being paid to the suspension which is very important for better handling of that extra power. As you can see by the mkiv.co.nz article above, '93 to '95 JDM Supras shared the same size brakes unlike the export spec.

Can you provide factual evidence of your statement about US Supras brakes being downgraded?

As for "racing pads". Yes, no substitute for bigger rotors and more pistons however, racing pads are not subjective. They genuinely improve braking performance. Better compounds = better grip onto the rotors which makes stopping easier and more precise. It'd rather have just a racing pads
upgrade than no brake upgrade at all. This of course is unnecessary on the original '93 RZ 6MT because, it's not pushing far more power than stock so it's brakes are definitely good enough.

Lol, I wonder if you guessed that my application is this:

To use the Supra to it's full potential in drag and circuit racing. It excels in both respects so, that's what I want to do. It's the best in power and handling from the Big Four Japanese supercars of the '90's, imho. The track (circuit racing) won't be very often but, I will definitely be on the track for drags more often than laps. My Supra and I will be king of the streets here which is where I'll be driving most often ;) (more) upgrading can be done by me step by step. If I desire, the dealer is more than willing to mod either one further e.g. a boost controller for the RZ 6MT. Therefore, both these Supras cater for my needs. The beauty of aftermarket is this: as your needs change (evolve) you can mod your car to suit them. Supra is going to blow my mind - stock or modified :bigthumb:

P.S. I would accept a stock standard Supra but, prefer if it's lightly to moderately modified like these two are. You must agree that Supra is exhilarating in both forms (moreso modded)? I notice you use the word "inferior" when talking about N/A's - the TT is certainly superior but, don't you think that's a bit harsh against the N/A?

BTW, where is JDM 93.5??? I need his feedback on the feel of an RZ thru 5MT box...

I know for a fact the 5 speed box brakes.Know a other supra driver he bought a automatic and converted it to the 5 speed and broke the box twice.

There is not that many supras in SA.

Hey howsit man? Didn't know there was another South African here :bigthumb: I heard that the W58 doesn't stand up well to Twin Turbo power unless it's been built. I need to ask the dealer about this to confirm...

Where are you from?

Im from witbank.
Any advise pwpanas gives you wil be good advise he knows alot obout supras.
Ill rather use the money you wil spend on making the 5speed stronger and just buy the 6 speed box.

Thank you for the additional information about Japanese-spec Mkiv brakes. Much appreciated.

Overall note: My purpose is to help protect you against the sellers here, that *may have* overstated the degree to which they have upgraded these cars. I'm also trying to educate other readers of this forum who may end up in a similar situation. My purpose is not to, for example, win an argument against you. I'm only trying to point out some things you may not have considered, given the limited information that you have posted here.

Disagree. In fact, now that you've shared your application I'm more convinced than ever than Ohlin shocks are overkill beyond overkill - waaaaaay too much suspension for your needs. Please consider the following:

• The oem shocks have been successfully roadraced.
• Minor suspension upgrades (Eibach springs and KYB shocks) have been successfully roadraced.
• Modest coilovers (HKS or Ground Control or Tiens) have been very successfully roadraced.
• You only need to go to the level of Penske/Ohlin/Moton shocks if you're a hard-core advanced amateur or semi-pro.

For your drag/street/track application, something like Eibachs and KYBs would fit the bill perfectly. At this level of suspension upgrade, your Supra's performance would be superior, and you would take great advantage of its capabilities. I suspect you'd get many years of great use out of that set-up before you would need to upgrade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND] (Post 99574) ...You can clearly see from the mod list that, the '95 Supra has APU engine upgrades. More power was clearly an emphasis with necessary attention being paid to the suspension which is very important for better handling of that extra power...

Too bad they didn't see fit to upgrade the brakes too...at least with US-spec rotors and calpers, if not something even better aftermarket (Brembo, AP Racing, Stoptech, Rotara, etc.). *shrug* With more power you don't just need to corner quicker, you need to stop quicker too.
Disagree. The reason I say this is because there's no such thing as a "racing" brake pad. The term is far too general. Give me the specific company name that makes the pad (eg. TRD? Carbotech? EBC? Brembo? Project Mu? etc.), and an exact compound specification and then we would actually have something that we can evaluate. Without that, a "racing" brake pad can actually hurt performance. For example, some of the 'EBC greenstuff' pads actually perform worse than oem, but some might consider them to be "racing" pads. Folks usually buy 'EBC greenstuff' pads because they create less brake dust than the oem pads. In fact, the oem brake pads really are quite good for braking performance, even in an on-track roadracing scenario.Agree: the TT is exhilarating. The n/a is merely something nice to look at.Not in the least little bit. If the n/a version were never made, the Mkiv Supra Turbo would have achieved a much higher ranking as an unequivicably 'affordable mid '90s supercar'. The Mkiv n/a's components are, to me, not much better than what you'd find in (for example) a Solara...which is by no standard a 'sportscar'.

I'm from Pretoria. Copy that dude. That's why I came to this thread because I knew I'd get a response from him. I don't intend to buy the 5MT, 6MT is what I've always been after...like you say, spending money to upgrade the 5 speed is unwise - rather get the 6MT and spend cash on upgrading engine, suspension, etc. It's just that, the Twin Turbo 5MT I'm talking about here has damn good modifications...

Your name is Phil right? I took a look at your Supra on your MySpace page. She's hot man, hot! I see we have similar taste in styling - good set of rims, no radical body kit, more stock look with enhancements such as tasteful kits to add to the original beauty of the Supra. My pleasure to provide info :)

I know your aim dude, no need to point it out. I really appreciate your advice. That's exactly why I came here, to get advice from people who currently own Supras and can tell me from experience what's what when mods are concerned. Thanks.

Glad you mentioned that the OEM shocks have been successfully roadraced because, that's just my point. The Supra as a whole is such a well engineered car stock standard, there's no real need to change anything. Now, I can get an enhanced Supra like the '93 RZ 6MT which has overall great parts that really add to it's already impressive capabilities which is a no brainer.

Wow, are Ohlins really THAT good??? Please tell me more about them because, until I saw the '95 Supra, I never heard their name before, lol (seriously, I haven't).

My needs are completely taken care of by both Supras - you reckon the Ohlins are overkill right now and I agree however, doesn't that also mean that I score big in that department if I do in fact buy that Supra with Ohlins - when I eventually do become hardcore amateur, semi-pro, the car already has such suspension?? Right, I've asked the dealer more questions about brakes, transmission and so on and will report back when he tells me more. Aww yeah, the '93 has HKS suspension which has been very successfully road-raced - I love the sound of that :crazy2:

About the racing pads. I answered you based on what came to my mind when I heard about them - perhaps they are TRD and if they are, I read on TRD's website that their pads offer "higher initial bite" than standard. They weren't referring to the Supra I'm sure because the Supra, as you say has very good brakes and pads as is but, what I gather from them is that's what they term "racing pads". If you buy TRD pads specifically for the Supra then, I'm guessing the performance will be even better to say the least. Just me putting 2 and 2 together because of a lack of information as to what the car actually has...yeah, if he didn't do the rotors as well, it's a pity. At least he didn't neglect them as a whole though. I'll wait for more info from the dealer but, I don't think he'll be able to tell me the compound of the pads. Sorry.

Toyota built the Supra in the best way possible - both TT and N/A. They know best what suits each the best. I only look for Supras that have been logically upgraded in such a way that matches and/or exceeds the level of performance Toyota achieved originally. The TT came with a 6 speed Getrag for a reason, conversely, the N/A came with a 5 speed also, for a reason - I agree with you fully on that one. I must say that I am highly impressed by the quality of Supras I have found in it's homeland. Superb tuning and pristine condition would make any hardcore fan happy.

What do you understand by a racing blow off valve?? they didn't give me a brand but said that the '93 RZ has a racing blow off valve - it doesn't look like an HKS or Blitz in terms of size but, it's definitely a BOV. How do you think it will perform (sound as well)? It's mounted where the original BOV is/was if that helps...

About the Supra being exhilarating - I actually meant both forms as in standard TT or modded;) I can't wait for this car man...years I've longed for it and now, it's finally in my midst - I can't describe that feeling to you in words...

Yes.Thank you! :DAbsolutely, but I'll let you decide. For starters, take a look at the price:
http://www.ohlinsusa.com/us/index.ph...road-and-track
Agree. I'm not saying it's bad to have too much suspension (except perhaps in the area of maintenace costs). However, I am saying the upgrades on that car are a bit unbalanced...too much suspension and not enough brakes. It's just an overall comment about the choices made for the specific combination of modifications. Like perhaps a project abandoned partway through? From the perspective of a project car or a starting point it's just fine. From the perspective of someone that wants to take the car out and seriously roadrace day 1, perhaps it's not optimal. *shrug*
The oem rotors are in fact better than aftermarket slotted and/or cross-drilled for pure braking power. However, there's no way to upgrade the rotor diameter without also changing the calipers. That's the level of brake upgrade that should have been done to match that suspension, imho.There are a very few areas where the Toyota let us down with the oem components, but the oem BOV is one of them. Inside it is just cheap plastic, and with the heat generated in the 2jz-gte engine bay the oem bov has a limited life span before it starts leaking. Pretty much any/every BOV will perform better than stock, especially in the reliability area. Of course, if you upgrade to a large single turbo, you'll also need larger size of BOV(s) to vent a greater volume of air during a blow-off.
If you're running the oem MAF, be sure to get a BOV that has an output routed back to the post-maf intake tube (as it is in the oem configuration). If you vent the BOV to atmosphere (again, with a MAF), you'll run overly-rich every time the BOV vents, which can stall the car and/or foul the plugs and/or wash down the cylinder walls.I do wish you the best of luck in obtaining a Supra. Please keep us informed on your journey! :)

Thanks for the vote of confidence and all the answers Phil. Oh, and my pleasure (complimenting your car) :)

I kinda agree with you on the point about the '95 Supra with OHLINS being abandoned half way through the project. I got the feeling that the previous owner was prepping it for a big single turbo...with the Sard racing fuel pump, HKS F-Con IS and Trust oil cooler, he may very well have been?
Are the stock rotors unsuitable for OHLINS?? :uh: OHLINS is damn expensive!!!

About the BOV, it looks quite solid (stainless finish) so, it should last a long time huh? It's quite small compared to an HKS SSQV or GReddy Type RZ
so, you reckon the sound will be easily audible or not?

The dealer told me how the '93 RZ felt and is about to tell me how the '95 feels after he drives it. Good news, the superb '93 RZ 6MT has a full HKS exhaust with front/down pipe :bouncy:

This is what the dealer told me after I asked them a few more questions about the APU+ Supra:

It's around 400HP so, the racing clutch allows the 5MT to handle that power well. If I want to modify it more like, go big single, I should install 6MT. They don't think that the ABS system has been upgraded however, most people who modify like to cancel ABS to get a more direct braking feel (this doesn't tell us that it's been cancelled rather, what a certain tuning practice may be). He does think that the ABS will be quite good with this power though, no problem.
He's confident that the racing pads make a favourable difference to the stock rotors braking performance. Engine, ECU, ignition coil, wiring harness is all RZ grade - complete set, no problem there.

What do you reckon?

P.S. more tuning questions: if you install a TRD 320km/h and 10 000rpm tacho, do you need to calibrate them or are they just plug and play (will both read correct speeds by default)? Is the HKS F-Con IS a stand alone unit that replaces the stock ECU altogether or does it work in conjunction with it?

Thanks Phil :bigthumb:

No, the braking system and the suspension system are independent of each other. Assuming a proper alighment and corner-weighting, you'd be able to corner like mad, but not stop very well. If you're okay with that imbalanced design for roadracing, then go for it. To me, it speaks to either bad planning for the upgrades, or a project partially finished. *shrug*To me, performance is always the trump card...not looks or cool sounds. The oem bov routes the charge-air from the BOV output back into the intake system, and the Toyota engineers designed it this way for a reason. To me, you don't mess with something that works unless there's a really good reason (and warbling blow-off valve sounds to impress your friends isn't one). Just mho.Yeah, there's another one I didn't mention earlier. No such thing as a "racing clutch". It's also too general of a term. An upgraded clutch also has specific a brand and a specific model.They're complete idiots, imho. Among other things, ABS is much safer in wet conditions, and it keeps you from flat-spotting your tires in dry conditions. The only justified ABS removal is if you choose to b@st@rdize your Supra and turn it into a trailered, drag-strip-only vehicle. Driving it only 1/4 mile at a time, with a parachute to slow you down at the end, the weight savings in removing the ABS is warranted. Other than that, keep it on. For n/a-T applications, get the TT ABS on there if at all possible, since it's much more capable than the n/a ABS: Eg. The TT ABS puts more braking power on the front left tire if turning right.Of course he says that - he's trying to sell the car lol. Again, just mho. *shrug*Again, no such thing. Oh, and he's very likely wrong as well...since the oem pads are so aggressive it's tough to beat them for a street/strip application. It's a joke and (to me) false advertising to imply that n/a brakes with "racing pads" are anywhere as effective as full TT 4-piston calipers and rotors.I still say get the oem TT and not the na-T.They're completely plug and play. However, neither are made anymore, so you'll have a tough time finding them.It's a standalone.

Disagree dude, BOV whooshing is what you NEED :bouncy:Especially for Supra with it's superb huge turbocharged "6 barrel shooter", that sound just works! Your friends and everyone else will be impressed just by looking at it then, when they hear it, they'd be blown away. The OEM BOV is audible but, it's quite soft. Agreed, if it works well then, no need to change but, you said so yourself that ANY BOV is better than the OEM one.

For all intents and purposes, "racing clutch" = upgraded clutch. Brand is unknown for now but, it's JDM, obviously it's superb quality. I guess it's a lightweight single plate type, possibly carbon.

BTW, I know what you mean but, the '95 is not an N/A-T, it's a full on Twin Turbo i.e. 2JZ-GTE. If it were a turbocharged GE then, yes, you can call it N/A-T. Inherent differences exist between it and the actual RZ 6MT as discussed.

Yes brakes and suspension are independent of each other. Remember what I said about JDM spec Supras pre '96? They share the same brakes - TT and N/A but, the ABS system is different (independent 4 wheel braking for Turbo - such awesome technology). Actually, need to confirm that just to make sure whether it's just for JDM TT. Yeah, RZ was tested to accelerate and stop the fastest in a super car showdown by some magazine in the mid '90's so, I can only imagine what the brakes' bite feels like :love:

Sigh dude, decisions decisions - I'm inclined to the RZ 6MT by default but, can't turn a blind eye to the RZ-S 5MT yet. I'm waiting to see which one I'm allowed to import - should make the decision easier (or harder, lol) I must have Supra RZ 6MT, NOW!!!!

Thanks for info on TRD gauges - yes, dealer confirmed that they're hard to come by now :(

So, what do you think of HKS EVC 5??

I can't begin to tell you how wrong I belive that your whole attitude is about this. They want your money and they can't even tell you what kind of clutch is in it. I can tell you 100% for sure I wouldn't send them a dime for that car unless I knew. For all you know - really! - it's just the oem clutch (or worse) and they're claiming it's a "racing clutch". How can you have so much blind faith in ... of all things ... a used car dealer???? I'm not going to call you gullible, since otherwise you come across as a very smart guy... Sorry to be blunt, but I can't help coming to that overall observation about your approach. Please consider being a bit more critical about them before you send them any of your hard-earned dollars...and repeat after me: there is no such thing as a "racing" clutch, or "racing" brake pads. These are just overly-general terms invented by a used car salesman that's either too lazy to find out what product was really used, or too slick to tell you the truth about what's really on there.
Let's agree to disagree about this. With the oem n/a suspension, the oem n/a transmission, and the oem n/a brake calipers (yes I know model years, Japanese-spec, etc., etc., but to me they're still n/a brakes), oem n/a differential, and the oem n/a ABS system, to me it's an na-T at best. Call me wrong if you like, and disagree if you like, but you're not going to change my mind about this. Let's let the other readers of this forum decide for themselves.
If you think the oem TT (US-spec) brakes are cool, you should feel some real upgraded brakes like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. Oh, and brake ducts should be added too if it's going to be roadraced.
The HKS EVC 5 (actually the current model is 6) is a very good boost controller - I've got no concerns about it at all, as long as it's properly installed and properly calibrated. However, I prefer the HKS EVC EZ 2 (or the just-released HKS EVC-S) for its simplicity and lower price.

Thanks for the compliment :D

How can I just believe them you ask? Fair question. Best answer I can give you is this - as you know, I live in SA. I will buy a Supra from Japan. At the moment, it's uneconomical for me to fly over there and look at the cars personally - the money for that whole trip will go into the car itself after all. I'd love to do that though. Due to this reality, taking the dealers' word for it is all I have to go on. I'm an optimistic person. I know you're pushing me to remain realistic about the info I receive and I won't reject that advice however, judging by the conversations I have with the dealer, their urgent responses and willingness to answer all my questions about the cars, and the huge discount they're willing to give me since my budget is tight, it shows sincerity on their part. Yes, they are a dealer, they want to sell a car to me - either Supra 1 or Supra 2, either way, they will make their money and I have no guarantee whatsoever that what they say is true. BUT, they have sent me numerous pictures of each car allowing me to see it's condition for myself and that it has A, B, C upgrades installed - more importantly than that, a clear picture of the '93 RZ's odometer was taken showing me the exact mileage of the engine. Once the car is prepped for shipping, they will send a video to me (a video from port). I will try to be more critical though. If anything, I'm the type of guy who will ask 100's of questions about something before I buy it after all.

There is after sales service as well - if I find something wrong with the car or any parts they installed upon arrival at port, I can send it back to them as a whole or, they will give me replacement parts free of charge.

You know the saying - "half-a-loaf is better than none..."

I hear you about racing clutch/pads. I'm gonna ask them about the brand next time. Depending on the previous owner's driving skill, do you realise that the OEM clutch or "racing" one will feel quite good (new) since it's very low mileage?

We can agree to disagree about your take on the '95 being an N/A-T since I know how you feel about N/A. I must say that I disagree with your feelings about an N/A MKIV Supra but, they're yours. I don't have to say it again but I will, TT Supra is far superior than N/A - all enthusiasts know this fact well. That being said, the '95 isn't an SZ or N/A anymore now, is it...

Questions:
Can you agree that the engine it has is from an RZ/S Twin Turbo Supra - 2JZ-GTE and the engine type is the main thing when discussing N/A or Turbo?
You also know that it has very high level aftermarket suspension, fuel pump, upgraded pads, TCS installed and 1.5 way LSD - all of which make up for the N/A's shortcomings or at least make up for them to some degree?
The previous owner clearly wanted to transform his SZ into an RZ and aimed his choice of upgrades at the OEM's level or a level above in some cases (he just left out the tranny :dunno: why)
In other words, do you agree that, a 2JZ-GTE wasn't just dropped into an SZ and left as is?

Second major component after the car's heart is the tranny - this we know has been retained from the SZ since it's 5MT. This is what's throwing me the most right now :offwall:

Which is more affordable from the 3 braking brands you listed?

Then ask for a picture of this so-called "racing clutch". They'll have to put it up on a lift (or jackstands), and remove the dust covers in the bellhousing to do so.
Disagree. The engine could have been swapped, as the odo panel also could have been.
I bought my Mkiv Supra Turbo brand-new from Toyota. Do you really need to ask that question? What I'm saying is the seller should call it a "racing clutch" if in fact it is a non-upgraded oem clutch. If the seller does that, to me it falls under the crime of false advertising.Yes to your first question (it has a 2JZ-GTE), and NO to your second one. The main thing when discussing NA or Turbo is the whole package. An n/a with a 2jz-gte does NOT perform OR have the upgrade potential of the TT. Period. The thing that makes the Mkiv Supra Turbo so special - the one thing that truly distinguishes it from all other GT sportscars of the '90s - is how insanely overbuilt it is. It's almost unbelievable that Toyota would have shipped a car (the Toyota Supra Turbo) advertised at 320hp with the following characteristics, but they did(!):
- 6spd transmission and differential capable of well beyond 1500rwhp
- Differential capable of well beyond 1500hp
- Shortblock capable of 1000hp.
- Entire Mkiv Supra Turbo is capable of a rock-solid reliable 450rwhp with just a few simple modifications
- Entire Mkiv Supra Turbo is capable of a rock-solid 750rwhp with a turbo+fuel swap and a simple 'piggyback' fuel controller
- etc.
All of these characteristics are in the Mkiv Supra Turbo, and not in the Mkiv Supra N/A. So honestly, the "main thing" when discussing Turbo vs. NA is the whole package, and not just the engine.
No. First of all, these "upgraded pads" are just heresay - to me, the braking system has not been upgraded at all. Secondly, most people consider the transmission and differential to be pretty important parts of any vehicle...both of which are MUCH less capable in the n/a version.
Disagree. To me, the previous owner clearly realized he had made a mistake by buying an n/a and took a few steps to attempt to rectify that mistake by upgrading the engine and the suspension. He probably then realized how much more it would cost to bring the rest of that n/a Mkiv up to full TT specs, so he decided to abandon the project. In hindsight, the right thing for him to do would have been to sell the n/a and buy a TT instead...and then put the upgraded suspension on that much more capable base platform.
As you agreed above, this was a project abandoned part-way through.
None of them are really that affordable, honestly. We're talking thousands of $US to do the upgrade. Unless you're roadracing beyond the capabilities of the Mkiv Supra TT US-spec calipers, and you've already installed true "racing pads" (eg. Carbotech™ XP8™) and brake ducts, the cost would not be justified.

Again, we must agree to disagree on the topic of whether or not one should consider that particular n/a-T that is for sale a "full RZ/TT". It's wasting bandwidth in this forum, so please don't post on this one point anymore okay?
If you'd like, we can continue this debate privately.

If i may ask wat are they asking for the supras.
I replaced my oem pads that was worn out with ebc red stuff pads and the oem pads was much better then the ebc pads.

Same price for both.

Two great Supras are before me, I need to make a careful choice on one of them. I know I want the '93 RZ 6MT but, can't turn a blind eye to the '95 SZ-R 5MT because of the (more) very, very expensive aftermarket parts that it comes with. The '93 is perfect, no issues whatsoever there - original Supra RZ 6MT with great aftermarket parts and in beautiful, near brand new condition. I can already see myself with the '93 but, just need to get my head around the '95 and what it offers.

Thanks for all your feedback so far. I will keep you posted about my final choice and yes, I will set up a thread for you and I to discuss the future plans for my Supra :bigthumb:

P.S. thanks for the brake info...

You're very welcome, and good luck with your choice.

warmkop, thanks for that info! To me, that's more evidence that a pad that might be considered to be an unnamed "racing pad" by a seller might actually be a downgrade.

If you're looking for a pad that's a great track compound that will do okay on the street* it's Carbotech™ XP8™ - this compound will take some time to heat up to optimal working temperature on the street, so be careful. After it heats up, it's MUCH better than the oem pads (even a moderate brake pedal pressure will throw your molars into the windshield if you're not careful. I'm exaggerating, but not by much at all - the difference will shock you.).

If you're only going to be driving on the street*, the Carbotech™ 1521™ compound will be better suited because it gets up to optimal grip temperature more quickly. This compound still has a noticeable edge over the oem pad material, but the difference isn't as great as XP8s. Another option for the street that is a slight but noticeable upgrade from the oem pads is Hawk HPS compound.

* Disclaimer: Of course, this assumes you're starting out with the Mkiv TT 4-piston front calipers, and the Mkiv TT ABS system. If you're running the n/a front calipers and/or the n/a ABS system, you should stay away from all forms of roadracing, imho (regardless of pad).

I'm watching you Phil ;) Good to know about the EBC pads. I'll be posting a full review on the Supra I buy after I buy it. It's going to rock my world non-stop as is. Before I even think of upgrading anything in the Supra, I must get to know it well and harness it's power. After all that, then only can I look at anything more in the braking department or any other section of the car.

Right??

Good news - I found out what clutch and pads the '95 Twin Turbo Supra is running. OS Giken Clutch and Endless pads. I know those brands are very good. :offwall:

Here's the link to OS Giken's website: http://www.osgiken.net/products/supersingle.html

Quote: All OS Giken clutches include a corresponding performance flywheel to ensure maximum performance and unlock your vehicle’s potential.
This means that Supra's flywheel has also been changed from OEM to a Giken.

Link to Endless' website: http://www.endless-brake.info/street-track-pads

Thoughts?

The OS Gikken clutch isn't bad, but it doesn't stand up to HARD driving that well. I have a friend that had the twin disc version in his Supra, and he had to get the springs in the sprung-hub sections replaced several times. Again, it's an okay clutch, but not anywhere near a top-of-the-line clutch for the Mkiv Supra Turbo 6spd like this one:
http://www.titanmotorsports.com/tiltripcarcl.html


By the way, do you even know if it's a twin, triple or quad-disc Gikken? Here is the list of possible OS Gikken part numbers for the Mkiv Turbo:

• TS2CD
• TR2CD
• TS3B
• TS3BW
• R3C
• R4C

Regarding the Endless pads, which compound are they? We still don't have enough information about them. Here are the choices for Endless compounds:

• LF1
• LF2
• LF3
• MX72
• CC-R
• SSM
• SSY
• NS97
• ME20
• N03W
• N35S
• N40S
• N45S
• S89F
• S90F
• S91F
• S93F
• MA45B
• ES88G

Some of these pads might be absolutely horrible, like the EBC pads that warmkop used. At least find out specifically which pad it is, and then after that we can discuss how well they fit your application.

The Tilton clutch seems good but, is VERY EXPENSIVE and is aimed at very high horsepower figures. A good single plate clutch like the Giken should handle up to 500RWHP possibly more? No, I don't know how many plates - need to wait for them to tell me that. Do you know if the Giken clutch outperforms the OEM one?

What do you think of the brand Endless??

It's all relative. For example, compare it to this clutch:
http://www.titanmotorsports.com/tiqudifor93s.html
No - again, the sprung-hub design is a weakness...and that design feature is for comfort and reliability NOT "very high horsepower".
Didn't you read the information at the link you yourself posted? Gikken doesn't make a single disk clutch for the Mkiv Supra Turbo. Why ask this question? Please note that all clutches have a single pressure plate. It's only the number of clutch disks and floater plates that vary.
Of course it does, but most of the reason for that is that it is only offered for the Mkiv in multiple disk versions.
I'm not aware of anything wrong with that brand, I suppose. However, talking about the specific compound of pad installed on the Supra you're considering is more relevant. A compound that's great on the track can not only be 'bad' on the street...it can be dangerous. For example, Endless' S580 pad material wouldn't just be a bit dangerous - most likely you'd wreck your car with it. It takes a lot of hard braking just to bring that pad up to the temperature where it grabs. Before that, it feels like the pad is a solid stone and has almost no grip at all on the rotors.

To be honest though, the overall relevance of pads to the car purchase is a secondary consideration at most. Brake pads are consumeables, just like gasoline, oil, and transmission fluid. Is the exact type a consideration - sure...but only for the period of time until it needs to be changed. Many of the other parts on the car (eg. the brake calipers) are meant to last for many years or for the lifetime of the car, and that's what is of primary importance to evaluate.

Lastly, the question is a bit weird. It's kind of like asking if I like General Motors. I guess it's an okay car company in general but I wouldn't use a C6 Z06 to drive my grandmother to a ballet in the wintertime. I also wouldn't be caught dead in a Cobalt. *shrug*

And the difference is...?

But that clutch can handle 800HP...if that's not a very high figure to you, I don't know what is...

Yes Giken doesn't, sorry, my bad :D If the Giken is better than the OEM clutch then, that's all the better for me...

So tell me, why does the Tilton clutch description speak of "multi-plate" clutch?

Yes, agreed - the pad compound is second consideration - hence I haven't stressed about it. When I get the car, I'll look at the pads with an "if the shoe fits, wear it..." approach. If I'm not happy with them for my application, I'll buy a new set...

What did/do you think of the OEM pads through your personal experience?

For starters, the price (and yes, that Tilton all-carbon clutch is very much worth the price, imho.800hp=680rwhp. No, 680rwhp is NOT a "very high" figure for the Mkiv Supra Turbo. 680rwhp is achievable with the oem fuel system, methanol injection, and a small-to-mid-sized single turbo ... which is a rather modest configuration quite honestly. Truly impressive Mkiv Supra dynos are well over 1,500rwhp (which is >1,750hp) these days.
Why wouldn't it? It is a multi-plate clutch, so that description is completely accurate.Good (but not great) braking power, low noise, moderate rotor wear, relatively high amount of brake dust.

So, you're saying that a multi-plate clutch is one that has just a single pressure plate but, one with multiple floater plates?? If so, what is/are a floater plate/s?

Well first of all, I'm not just saying it. I've installed dozens of multi-disk clutches in dozens of supras (many more single disk clutches too, of course).

Secondly, there's no such thing as a clutch with more than one pressure plate - at least not for the 2jz-gte and V160.

The floater plates do just that - they float ... in between the multiple clutch disks, of course.

Right, to put it simply - a clutch disk is known as a clutch plate and those are referred to as single, twin or triple depending on the number but, there is only one pressure plate present. Right or wrong?

Twin, triple, or quadruple clutches have multiple clutch disks/plates and multiple floater plates. Clutch disks/plates always have friction material on them, but the pressure plate, floater plates and flywheel surface usually do not (except in the case of 'triple-carbon' clutches).

Here's an example of a quadruple disk, 'triple-carbon' carbon clutch:
http://www.titanmotorsports.com/tiqudifor93s.html
It is literally the most expensive clutch for the Mkiv Supra Turbo (w/2jz-gte and V160). It has four clutch disks, three floater plates, and sixteen surfaces with carbon-fiber friction material.

Here's another top-of-the-line clutch for the Mkiv Supra Turbo. It's RPS' triple carbon:
http://www.turboclutch.com/Pages/RPS%20BC3M%20LSX.htm
In this illustration, you can more clearly see all of the clutch disks and floater plates.

Ok then. Please stop talking about "racing pads" since you agree that factor is secondary at most.