Flowrate of the Stock Water Pump?

[Bolarbag]

Hey guys, owned a sup for 3years now, almost completed my single turbo conversion, upgrading from BPU with all new parts except block, I've been intrigued with the DaviesCraig electric water pump setup, I also own a Meziere electric pump too,

I'd like to know if there is a calculation or a specific flowrate at a given rpm specified by Toyota for the stock Waterpump?

My car is going to be a roadrace(track) car, there are benefits of both mechanical and electric pump setups but I need to know the limits and characteristics of the stock pump before I can go specing my electric pump


Hi pwpanas...I remember you from one of my first supra forums before I even got a sup, shame I cant actually remember the forum now! I'll post up pics of my sup soon

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by Bolarbag

Hey guys, owned a sup for 3years now, almost completed my single turbo conversion, upgrading from BPU with all new parts except block, I've been intrigued with the DaviesCraig electric water pump setup, I also own a Meziere electric pump too,

I'd like to know if there is a calculation or a specific flowrate at a given rpm specified by Toyota for the stock Waterpump?

My car is going to be a roadrace(track) car, there are benefits of both mechanical and electric pump setups but I need to know the limits and characteristics of the stock pump before I can go specing my electric pump

Unfortunately, I don't have flow calcs for the oem water pump. If you do find them please post them up here!

I can tell you that the oem water pump + aftermarket radiator (eg. PWR or Fluidyne) + oem fan & shroud is a combo that has been roadraced VERY successfully, over 700rwhp with no overheating. If you're only going to be BPU+++, I can tell you 100% for sure that the oem water pump will not hold you back. Btw, be sure to use only distilled water and water wetter (no coolant) for optimal cooling in the summer.

Originally Posted by Bolarbag

...Hi pwpanas...I remember you from one of my first supra forums before I even got a sup, shame I cant actually remember the forum now! I'll post up pics of my sup soon

Glad to hear from you again...looking foward to those pics!

[Bolarbag]

Thumbnail calc:


Assuming the pump was sized for a 320hp (240kW) engine, rejecting a typical 60% of its brake power to coolant, the water flow rate required to keep the temperature rise across the engine to 8degC would be 292litres per minute.


That's 17500litres per hour, or 3849 UK gallons per hour,

It dependes on whether the pump is sized for cooling at max power or at some other condition. Because engine driven pumps are slaves to the engien speed, its not uncommon to find that the pump design point is actually something like a high embient temperature trailer tow, or hill climb test rather than flat out on level ground. The rest of the pump capacity above this speed ends up being an uneccessary overhead. Don't forget that the faster you are going, the better cooling your get from the radiator, so you can drop the pump flow a bit.


Electric cooling of car engines is a minefield. You will find that brute-force cooling (by attempting to mimic the maximum flow available from the standard pump) drives you down the route of a huge pump. Systems designed from scratch to use electric cooling have clever water jackets with low backpressure (or very fast flow), electrically controlled thermostats, and other gizmos.


Its very likely that for your specific use you could get away with a much smaller pump, but sizing it will be difficult. For information, to do it properly you want thermocouples in the pump outlet (entry to engine), engine outlet and the radiator bottom hose. The difference between the pump outlet and the engine outlet will tell you the temp rise across the engine (which should stay below 8degC). The engine outlet should also stay below yout chosen max temp - 120degC or so). The difference between the pump inlet and the radiator bottom hose will give you an indication of how open the thermostat is. You may find that by replacing the thermostat with one that opens at a lower temperature, you can decrease the water pump size by increasing the flow through the radiator under fast cruise conditions. If you do this, then a good electric fan will probably also be required for boosting the cooling when the engine load is high but airflow through the rad is slower, or ambient temps are high, etc.


I know you can buy off the shelf kits to do this that imply a simple fix, but I assure you, once you start looking into the detail it gets very complicated very quickly! Good luck!

A Quote from Digsy a very knowledgeable design Engineer over on mkivsupra.net

So I currently have a 35gpm electric pump - 2100 U.S gallons per hour, or 1749 UK Gallons per hour pump - quite short of the oem spec using Digsy's Calculation

However there is a point were the oem spec pump becomes inefficient at high flow although not enough to cavitate as there has been no evidence that I've heard of in the last 4years, also at lower rpms the flow will not be as high as the electric constant flow pump, I have installed the pump to do away with as much parasitic drag and give me more cooling control especially trackside where I can have the pump flowing - even whilst the engine is off

My Car is far from BPU now - here is the spec
Engine Specifications:

OEM Engine Internals
GReddy Chrome Oil Filler Cap
GReddy Sandwich Plate
GReddy Oil Filter Relocation Kit
HKS Oil Cooler
TRD Oil Filter
TRD Engine Mounts
Aeromotive FPR
Unorthodox Racing Pulley Kit
Virtual Works Power Steering Relocation Kit

Turbocharger & Induction:

Garret GT35R
PHR Air Intake Kit
GReddy 3Row FMIC
HKS Racing BOV Type II
FULL RACE Gen 2 Manifold
2xTial 44mm wastegates
4" FULL RACE Downpipe/Midpipe

Fuel, Tuning & ECU:

Motec M600 EMS, with Wideband Lambda, Advanced Functions and Data logging
HKS EVC 6
HKS DLI
PHR Stage 1 Fuel System
PHR Oil Feed/Return
PHR Water Cooling Kit

Exhaust:

4" HKS Hyper Titanium Racing Exhaust

Cooling:

Fluidyne Radiator
GReddy 1.3Bar Rad Cap
Maziere Electric Water Pump
AAP Motorsport Electric Fans
TRD Thermostat
GReddy Upper Rad Pipe
Titan Motorsport Lower Pad Pipe

Drivetrain:

6Spd Manual
RPS Street 6 Puk Clutch
RPS Cyn-r-g Lightweight Flywheel

Weight Reduction & Transfer:

Shift Sports FRP Lightweight Hood
Seibon Carbon Fibre Doors
Seibon Carbon Fibre Fenders
Abflug Type 1 Nosecone
Completely Stripped, Battery Relocation, Air Con Removed, Water Pump Removed Radiator Overflow Tank Relocated, 5L Washer Bottle Removed,

Suspension, Wheels, Tires & Brakes:

HKS Hiper D Adjustable Coilover Suspension
TRD Sway Bars
Cusco 6 Point Rollcage
Cusco Front and Rear Strut Bars
Do-Luck Underfloor Bars
Do-Luck Cross Chasis Bar

Uprated Front Discs

Axis Milano 19" - Currently speccing wheels now - either 17's or 18's with as close to stock offset as pos - must be light!
GoodYear Eagle F1's
285/35/19 Rear 255/35/19 Front

Interior & ICE:

6 x Defi Bf's
AEM A/F Ratio Gauge
HKS EVC 6 Display
2 x Recaro Pole Positions (FIA Approved)
Recaro Fixed Side Mounts

Exterior:

OEM Skirts
OEM Rear Spats
De-Winged

It was 3years ago I'm sure I last posted a thread with you pwapnas, but for the life of me I cant remember what forum it was - could you pm me if you happen to remember also

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by Bolarbag

A Quote from Digsy a very knowledgeable design Engineer over on mkivsupra.net

So I currently have a 35gpm electric pump - 2100 U.S gallons per hour, or 1749 UK Gallons per hour pump - quite short of the oem spec using Digsy's Calculation

However there is a point were the oem spec pump becomes inefficient at high flow although not enough to cavitate as there has been no evidence that I've heard of in the last 4years, also at lower rpms the flow will not be as high as the electric constant flow pump, I have installed the pump to do away with as much parasitic drag and give me more cooling control especially trackside where I can have the pump flowing - even whilst the engine is off

My Car is far from BPU now - here is the spec
Engine Specifications:

OEM Engine Internals
GReddy Chrome Oil Filler Cap
GReddy Sandwich Plate
GReddy Oil Filter Relocation Kit
HKS Oil Cooler
TRD Oil Filter
TRD Engine Mounts
Aeromotive FPR
Unorthodox Racing Pulley Kit
Virtual Works Power Steering Relocation Kit

Turbocharger & Induction:

Garret GT35R
PHR Air Intake Kit
GReddy 3Row FMIC
HKS Racing BOV Type II
FULL RACE Gen 2 Manifold
2xTial 44mm wastegates
4" FULL RACE Downpipe/Midpipe

Fuel, Tuning & ECU:

Motec M600 EMS, with Wideband Lambda, Advanced Functions and Data logging
HKS EVC 6
HKS DLI
PHR Stage 1 Fuel System
PHR Oil Feed/Return
PHR Water Cooling Kit

Exhaust:

4" HKS Hyper Titanium Racing Exhaust

Cooling:

Fluidyne Radiator
GReddy 1.3Bar Rad Cap
Maziere Electric Water Pump
AAP Motorsport Electric Fans
TRD Thermostat
GReddy Upper Rad Pipe
Titan Motorsport Lower Pad Pipe

Drivetrain:

6Spd Manual
RPS Street 6 Puk Clutch
RPS Cyn-r-g Lightweight Flywheel

Weight Reduction & Transfer:

Shift Sports FRP Lightweight Hood
Seibon Carbon Fibre Doors
Seibon Carbon Fibre Fenders
Abflug Type 1 Nosecone
Completely Stripped, Battery Relocation, Air Con Removed, Water Pump Removed Radiator Overflow Tank Relocated, 5L Washer Bottle Removed,

Suspension, Wheels, Tires & Brakes:

HKS Hiper D Adjustable Coilover Suspension
TRD Sway Bars
Cusco 6 Point Rollcage
Cusco Front and Rear Strut Bars
Do-Luck Underfloor Bars
Do-Luck Cross Chasis Bar

Uprated Front Discs

Axis Milano 19" - Currently speccing wheels now - either 17's or 18's with as close to stock offset as pos - must be light!
GoodYear Eagle F1's
285/35/19 Rear 255/35/19 Front

Interior & ICE:

6 x Defi Bf's
AEM A/F Ratio Gauge
HKS EVC 6 Display
2 x Recaro Pole Positions (FIA Approved)
Recaro Fixed Side Mounts

Exterior:

OEM Skirts
OEM Rear Spats
De-Winged

Imho, that guy was having cooling problems because he was trying to roadrace with electric fans. Also, note that his specs are considerably beyond BPU+++. Again, if you are going to be BPU or BPU+++ (i.e. if you're going to be staying with the oem twins), you can be 100%+++ confident that the oem water pump will be far more than sufficient to do the job for you.

[Bolarbag]

Sorry the calc quote was from Digsy

The above spec is my spec

its not finished yet as I'm waiting on a little custom fabrication - but in my country with ambient temperatures reaching max 23 Deg C the cooling above should be sufficient

I totally agree the stock fan is the best unless like me you have a custom shroud made for the electric fans

Even then the stock fan will probably still flow twice as much as the electric fans however do we need the fan to flow insane amounts while were taking corners at 70+mph I dont think so

I still have all the oem parts ready to go back in if I find that the temp is a lot higher than the car - or I - can tolerate

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by Bolarbag

Sorry the calc quote was from Digsy

The above spec is my spec

its not finished yet as I'm waiting on a little custom fabrication - but in my country with ambient temperatures reaching max 23 Deg C the cooling above should be sufficient

I totally agree the stock fan is the best unless like me you have a custom shroud made for the electric fans

Even then the stock fan will probably still flow twice as much as the electric fans however do we need the fan to flow insane amounts while were taking corners at 70+mph I dont think so

I still have all the oem parts ready to go back in if I find that the temp is a lot higher than the car - or I - can tolerate

Ok. For what it's worth though, if (and only if) it overheats using an aftermarket radiator and your electric fans, I'd suggest putting the oem fan back in INSTEAD OF experimenting with an aftermarket water pump. *shrug*