possible blown Head Gasket
 

POSITIVES:

* car doesn't have milky substance in oil cap
* temperature guage reads fine
* coolant is still at full level
* engine sounds good

NEGATIVES:

* there is a smell from under hood, I thought it was oil, I can't destingish if its the sweet coolant smell
* there is a substantial lose of power (very sluggish)
* idle's very roughly and engine easily dies off in idle
* some white smoke from exhaust
*coolant is grey but not sludge (though I heard this can be due to red and blue coolants being mixed, guess a coolant change is in order)

My local Toyota garage can't take her in until Monday next, I have already drove her alot and don't want to touch her again in fear of fecking the engine.

Could the lose of power just be spark plug problem?
Could the grey coolant simply be a Water Pump seal leak problem?

If I do need new Head Gasket should I just go for stock part? Are they aluminium?

Would it be worth going with:

ARP head studs and a 2mm thick piece from HKS and fitted with 1mm oversized valves, and stock cams fitted with AEM cam gears. (lol, not sure what this is all about but if its good I will pay)

millimeters are pretty big measurements when dealing with engine internals... I've read posts where fractions of a millimeter are removed from the head and/or block... leaving room to make up for if you desire the correct compression. If you just throw a 2mm gasket on the block, I'm pretty sure you're going to change the volume within the head significantly and therefore change your compression ratio. I'm not sure if it's required, but usually trimming the head and/or block, or throwing in a stroker kit seems to address this a little better (from what I've read, open for any corrections that may benefit my knowledge and inform the OP otherwise)

I've always understood gaskets to be made of fairly cheap, almost cardboard like, material.. not aluminum or metal. The metal head gaskets are less likely to blow, but really not necessary unless you're putting out a lot of power.


Milky oil won't be in the oil cap, it'll be in the oil pan... easiest checked with a dipstick after the vehicle's been parked and sitting for some time (overnight) and the engine block is cold and fluids are uncirculated. I've also been told white smoke is usually a sign of coolant entering the cylinder and being burned off with the fuel.. which might be where the smell is coming from. However, given what you've mentioned, it really sounds more of an issue with timing than cooling or a BHG... properly timed engine should not idle rough and a poorly timed engine will be fairly sluggish.. you can also pull the plug wire for spark plug #6 and see if it has any moisture or oil. If I read and remember correctly, this is typically a sign of bad valve seals.

I know I'm not very knowledgable in cars yet, just applying logical analysis... so hopefully another poster can confirm or correct my statements and help point you in the right direction as well. Good luck, would like to know the end result once you find it.

lol same symptoms as my car. i thought it was a HG too but turned out i have 2 cracked pistons. if you check my thread the gasket isnt made THAT poorly... could be better. but i had a rough idle, loss of power, smoke out the mack of my car.... all HG symptoms. honestly you never know what it is sometimes unless you look under the hood yourself. or pay a shop a bunch of money.

http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/...omorrow-6.html

I was recommended mechanic near my work by a few people.

I brought it up to him, he reckons its the spark plugs so he will look at it on Friday when I'm at work - fingers crossed


A lad in work reckons its a fuel supply problem.

Is this a GTE or a GE?

Gte
 

GTE however I probably won't need to change HG but please continue, I am listening


Misfiirng cylinders, however the variety of diagnosis leaves me wondering:

electrical, coil, spark plugs, idyling float, trottle positioning, it is earthing, let the fuel run to low and sucked bits at bottom of tank up, got bad petrol, head gasket, battery, air intake, carburator etc

We will know on Friday if its spark plugs?

Definitely know on Monday.

without even hearing any of the other symptoms, misfiring cylinders would still point me to timing... but that will prob be addressed once you start lookin under the hood, since you are going to check plugs first...

Have you checked for diagnostic codes?
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/TechTi...ror_codes.aspx

The grey coolant is NOT a good sign and it is something I would personally freak out about (there's little that freaks me out). If it is due to mixed coolant the system should be thoroughly flushed (chemical flush, not just water and a light detergent) and most types of coolant do NOT play nicely with each other (some even turn to gelatin on the walls of every surface inside to coolant system and just because it didn't all emulsify it doesn't mean none of it did).

I was asking if it was a GE or GTE due to your question about upgrades.

The head gasket would have to be changed when you install new head bolts or head studs (either would be fine and ARP is the manufacturer of choice for these fasteners).

A 2mm head gasket is only needed if you are planning on adding a much larger turbo OR if the block and head require significant milling. A thicker head gasket lowers cylinder compression which on a stock engine is unnessecary and will result in a decrease in power. The decrease in compression does allow for you to run a larger boost pressure though which can more than make up for the offset in base power. In a high horsepower build you would still (in an ideal situation, anyway) go with the thinnest head gasket allowable and use different pistons to reduce the compression ratio.

The stock valves flow plenty... especially if combined with a cam of a more aggressive profile. I would upgrade the cams before upgrading the valves. I would get the head rebuilt including a 5 ange valve job (a 3 angle valve job is more than enough, but if you want to go all out I'd go with the 5, it flows even better).

Adjustable cam gears don't always result in a power increase... they are used to tune the power curve to match your needs. They move some torque from one place in the curve to another. You could say they make more power in some cases as they may remove power from one area and add it to another, but it is all trade-off.


If there is a smell, there is a leak... period.

Unless the smoke is black, it's oil or coolant (neither is generally a good sign).

The stock head gasket is a composite graphite material with copper jackets.

There is nothing wrong with using a stock HG on a relatively stock system. The head gasket was never really the problem to begin with nor were the stock head bolts to be blamed; the torque level used on the head bolts was the problem... but then keep in mind that the stockers generally lasted ~20 years on the low torque level. ;) Personally, I'd feel safe on a stock head gasket as long as VERY little material was removed from the head and block deck during the replacement at low boost levels. If you're going to be increasing the boost I'd go with a thicker gasket in which case a metal head gasket and the additional prep work are a requisite.

no wonder there was such a lose in power she was running on 4 cyclinders. turned out it was a faulty coil. only cost €30 for a new one and to be fitted. he said there should be a great improvement in fuel consumption - heres hoping but she sounds great and drives great.

however the mechanic still recommended I go to Toyota garage for Diagnosic system test because the engine still cuts out ever now and again when near stopping in low gear which is unrelated to the lose of power which is now fixed. so I will leave her in on Monday.

turns out that ROCKET HEAD GASKET is leaking oil and that is the burning smell under the hood so Toyota garage can replace that also. I found a link below with same problem on Skyline http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...sk-t71313.html. It seems the leaking ROCKET HEAD GASKET AND FECKED UP IDLYING may be related or could just be a coincidence.

In the thread in link above it mentioned idlying problem having something to do with the throttle body bypass being dirty. What are your thoughts on this?

will keep you's posted.

Ok... I had no idea what you meant by rocket... that was a typo on their site and they meant rocker... not entirely accurate, we don't have rockers... it's more commonly called a cam or valve cover. Yeah, it's not uncommon for those to leak as the seals leak and the screws back out.

The bypass to which you refer is the idle speed controller... It is not uncommon for it to get clogged up with oil and dust over the years and as a result it may cause iddues with the idle.

As your valve cover are leaking I would first pull the spark plug wires and check if oil has leaked down in around the plugs; it's just as common as the leaking valves and can cause shorts.

To check for diagnostic error codes you simply need to install a jumper and count the flashes of the check engine light.... very easy and cheap. I'd start with that before paying Toyota techs to do it. :P
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/TechTi...ror_codes.aspx

If you're even subtly mechanically inclined I'd just replace the valve covers myself as well... the hardest part is disconnecting the throttle body (a whopping 4 bolts ;) ). Wehn tightening the screws that hold the valve covers use some light strength thread locker and don't over tighten them.... they really only need the be a firm hand tight (just under 2 ft lbs or 2.71 Nm).

Thanks cre and everyone else for all the replys.


Turns out Toyota Ireland call them Rocker Head Gaskets and there are 2 of them. €15 per gasket and will arrive the next day.


I'd have to use sealant and all if I decided to change it myself. Someone warned me not to use silicone based sealant - I wouldn't want to go mislaying threads of aluminium or stuff like that.


If it was a second car I would be more inclined to do some of the work myself because it does interest me but I don't have that luxury.

Right, left her into Toyota this morning and they just phoned me:

(1) There's no water getting to the engine (temperature guage always reads normal though), however this rings true with grey coolant, previous owner mixing red and blue has resulted in sludge which is probably blocking it,

(2) Rocker Gasket and seals need replacing (however we already knew this),

(3) All the plug leads need replacing as they are all different.

"and few other wee things" which is how he phrased it. So they are keeping her overnight to work on her tomorrow.

This is going to cost me a pretty packet but I'm glad to give her the allover that she badly needs.

Excellent! It doesn't matter who's doing the work as long as it gets done and is done properly. :D

Glad to hear nothing serious was wrong.

cheers. great to have your advice. wish I knew as much as you!

Toyota invoice
 

1 x GASKET, CYLINDER HEAD 89.92
1 x GASKET KIT, ENGINE OVERHAUL 408.13
14 x BOLT (FOR CYLINDER HEAD SET) 43.54
1 x CORD SET, COIL & SPARK, W/RESISTIVE 186.76
6 x PLUG, SPARK, PQ20R 78.84
1 x FILTER SUB-ASSY, OIL 10.57

SUB-SUB-SUB TOTAL €817.76

CODENT 5 LTRS 22.50
OIL 10W40 31.00

SUB-SUB TOTAL €871.26 + VAT

HEAD PRESSURE TESTED & SKIMMED 304.74

SUB-TOTAL €1176.00

LABOUR 1147

TOTAL €2323.00 + VAT

:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::e ek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek 2::eek2::eek2:

:werd:

And now you know why I do all my own work. ;)

My head is up my ass right now.

Point 1: first mechanic replaced coil and informed me Rocker Head Gasket needs replacing (however this mechanic hasn't even got a pit or hoist);

Point 2: Toyota have car for 2 days just to check it, no work has been done, first day they inform me of new set of plugs need replacing etc, second day head gasket needs replacing;

Point 3: local car part company put me in touch with local performance car mechanic, he says it doesn't sound like a blown head gasket but can't look at it until after Christmas.


Why would Toyota lie?

There is a Supra Specialist Company fairly close to me. Should I let they have a look? http://www.supraspecialists.moonfruit.com/#

Should I not get a new fecking engine instead? How much would a new engine be? I blelieve reconditioned maybe €4000, though not sure.

Something isn't right with the car like.

The car isn't worth that, however I would pay to have it done as I love her.

It doesn't seem to me that your head is up your rear at all... It does seem that maybe you're in over your head though.

I REALLY think you need to either come to terms with learning how and doing some of the work yourself or accept that the car is going to cost you an absolute fortune to send to the shop every time something goes wrong.

Do you know anyone who is mechanically inclined who could help you?

#1 if the spark plugs haven't been replaced yet, do them yourself. Go to the auto parts store, but the specified NGK Platinum spark plugs and follow the directions in the following link EXACTLY.

Disassembly to access the spark plugs: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...ection=IG&P=10
Spark plug installation: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar....aspx?S=IG&P=7

Don't worry about inspecting the plugs yet, just replace them for now and we'll have a look at the old ones later to see if they have anything special to tell us.

Actually, once you move the piping out of the way from sitting over the engine, you're half way to replacing the valve cover gaskets.... I can lay out the proceedure for you, but I don't think I'm close enough that you want to just come over and let me show you how to do it.... ;)

Sorry, forgot about the rest of your query...

Point 1: Replacing the valve/rocker cover gasket doesn't require a pit or a hoist or anything other than hand tools... so unless he's talking about the head gasket I have no idea why he wouldn't be able to do it.

Point 2: Ask them how they diagnosed the bad head gasket... get it in writing or write it down and let me know. Ask if they did a compression test and if so what were the EXACT numbers, write them down and post them up. Ask if the coolant was contaminated with oil or if they did a pH test on the coolant and post the results back here. Did they replace the spark plugs and the valve/rocker cover gaskets?

Point 3: You don't need a performance shop to handle these issues.... just a competent mechanic, a Toyota specialist is definitely preferred.

The guys at the Toyota shop didn't necessarily lie.... you haven't got enough info to know what they went looked at or how they came to their prognosis. So, we can help you ask the questions you should be asking, but until we get the answers back, not one can tell you if they've made an error or are flat out lying.

You REALLY don't want to know what a new block would cost (if there was even one available). Even if you bought a fully rebuilt engine from a GOOD shop, the cost of having it installed would probably kill you. Prices vary from one market to the next so I can't say what it would cost there. I suppose I should ask though... what are you willing to spend? How much did the car cost you?

Right I'm off work on Sunday so I will change the plugs myself.

The stockroom lad in work is a motorbike enthusiast, he does minor work himself, he has replaced engine in a car with a qualified mechanic before.

Recently all we've done is talk about cars. He is a wealth of good information like yourself cre, he was very surprised that the HG had gone, he said it must have just gone.

Reading back on paperwork HG was last replaced in 99 when the car was 10 years old, since them a further 10 years have passed. poor women had only bought it 3 months from the dealer before she had to replace it, I laughed reading it, now I'm in the same pradictament, lol

I will call into car part shop in town to buy 6 plugs and cord set.

Guy in work was saying hardest part is making sure you don't mis-thread the plugs.

EDIT:

Toyota did no work on it.

Car cost 1250 STERLING. I had plans to make a lot of changes to her, this has just set them back a bit.

First was exterior styling, then mechanical working, then ICE and interior.

New wheels should arrive in 2 days 1200 STERLING, personalised number plate SUP 708 has been ordered 2500 STERLING(this was the best available as I can't change plates to make the car look younger, there was some wicked plates for new cars), travelled to Dublin last week to get Limo-black tints however the small rear triangular windows are bigger on the outside than on the inside and have rubbers-they couldn't get in under the rubbers so you would have seem were the tint started from the outside (I am going to get glass company to take rears out and bring them to get tinted with the rest of the car).

THIS WAS ONLY THE START.

http://www.modified.com/features/060.../photo_02.html

Order new seals for the rocker covers from Toyota while you're at it... I do recommend getting actual Toyota brand seals for those.

http://www.modified.com/features/060.../photo_02.html

I think this Supra is sweet.

just side comment from the peanut gallery.. I need to take the car in for greater majority of things wrong with it... I might be able to swap a battery, alternator, spark plug wires and such... but when it comes down to diagnostics and repairs that require something be removed to access something else... I'll take her into a shop (for now, hopefully I'll catch up to Cre someday).. However, I typically will find out what is wrong with it and buy the parts myself rather than the mechanic's supplier.. this doesn't save a bundle, but it has definately saved me ~$500 on the $1500 in car repair I've had since owning her.

there is no valve cover gasket mentioned on the Toyota document as you can see;

I will ring Toyota tomorrow for more details, like ph etc;

this is were the leaks are according to first mechanic;

are there 2 valve cover gaskets?;

when replacing the valve cover gasket will I have to do a valve adjustment;

these seals are they spark plug tube seals or what about them;

do I need to order 2xseals for gaskets?;

what about grommets?;

what tools am I likely to need?;

should I use sealant and what type?

The cover gaskets are in the overhaul gasket set they listed.

The spark plug grommets are built into the boot on the spark plug wires.

There is also a third valve cover or rocker cover "gasket" which is the big black thing running down the center of the two covers... the plug wires reach between it. It is advisable to replace it as it helps keep oil away from the spark plugs if the other cover seals are leaking and it helps keep dirt from dropping down in there as well. It is not as inexpensive as the seals for the two covers though. And yes, there are two rocker cover seals, one for each side.

I just want to know how the Toyota shop diagnosed the blown head gasket, really. It's not a given they used any of the methods I mentioned, there are a few tests which will indicate the HG or not... but for a firm diagnosis more than one needs to be employed.

There is only one place where sealant is used... use a GOOD sealant for the job, either Toyota's recommended FIPG (form in place gasket) material or "The Right Stuff" if it is available in your region or an equivalent.

If you look here you'll find an exploded view of the cylinder head and components. Toyota calls the covers we've been talking about the #1, #2 and #2 cylinder head covers. On that same page is the torque specification for each srcew and bolt... be sure to follow those values when putting everything back together; These engines are VERY tempermental if things are over or under tightened... this is very easy with a decent torque wrench and the folks at the parts store should be happy and able to show you what the value on the page that you need to look at is and how to use the wrench.

Tools: Socket wrench, 12mm and 10mm sockets, one socket extension (I think 12in/30cm or so will do), torque wrench, phillips screwdriver, 14mm hex socket (for the #3 cover), a couple towels.

The first picture here shows where to put the sealant. Make sure there is absolutely no oil on the surface when you put the sealant on. Do NOT use sealant anywhere else.

When you reinstall the rocker covers you may tighten them with a regular screwdriver just hand tight; most torque wrenches of higher values like you want for the rest of the job either do not go that low or they are too inaccurate that low. So, unless you want to buy second torque wrench for the appropriate range just get them good an hand tight. I recommend using blue thread sealant (non-permanent type; they can get it for you at the parts store) on the screws and replacing the 12 grommets/rubber backed metal washers with new ones from Toyota is a good idea.

I'm getting excited.


I may have to put this off depending on cost.


Just studying right now.


Good links cre

"not every supra looks like a catfish"

love that car.

UPDATE:

I phoned Toyota Garage today;

(1) they didn't do pH test on the water reservoir,

(2) they didn't do a compression test on cyclinder heads.


They did do pressure test on the water/coolant, results;

(1) it didn't hold any pressure,

(2) there is no water getting to the engine at all.


If this were the case the engine would not be working.

Checked the oil again, it is clear as day, no bubbles.

After I come home from work today I am going to feel the water reservoir to see if it is warm, that should tell me if the water is circulating and therefore getting to the engine, YES?

My water reservoir never warms up is this right?

I drained the radiator and the coolant was cyrstal clear (pink yes).

I think the engine plug bolt head has been snapped off before because were it should be there is a screw headless bolt hanging out (maybe I'm mistaken and can't find it from top view).

Should I disconnect the hose at the rear them to drain the engine?

The water from the reservoir never drained when I drained the radiator, is this because the pump pumps it out?

Next I filled radiator with water, switched engine on, no change to reservoir, so I undid the plug a little and waited while some water drained, no change to reservoir. How can I get pump to pump water from reservoir to see if it is working?

The radiator gets very hot, I know this is normal but it steams alot. Is this a sign of a leaky radiator or a bad radiator? Why does my thero also read normal?

Right, I didn't even notice the sticky relating to oil in cyclinder cover gasket, good thread and very reassuring.

So I might just replace the #3 Cyclinder Head Cover with new part from Toyota and not the Valve Cover Gaskets. Aswell as replace the plugs and wires.

That should sort out misfiring problem then move on to next problem.

I know I jump from one thing to the next but if Toyota came up with no pressure in cooling system, there must be something in it.

Were are you cre, don't give up on me!

The coolant expands (increasing in pressure) as it heats up. The radiator cap is made to vent this pressure and maintain 13psi. So, when the radiator cap opens, hot coolant flows into the reservoir. The reservoir may not feel hot because the incoming coolant is mixing with cool coolant AND the reservoir is in a location which cools it off very quickly while driving.

As the coolant and engine cool, the coolant decreases in volume. The radiator cap opens up under the suction and coolant id drawn from the reservoir into the radiator to fill in the gap... it's not really something you can watch happening... not unless you're very patient and bored.

Well, if the bolt is sheared off you're not going to have a fun time trying to extract the body.... I'd work around it.

For most procedures just draining the radiator and then lower radiator hose will remove enough coolant to get your work done...

Refresh my memory, why are you draining the whole system?

It's a siphon... the radiator and reservoir both have to have water for it to move from the res into the rad. ;)

Answered at the top.

Steaming is NOT normal and is indicative of a leak. You may need to replace the radiator. Call around and locate a coolant pressure test kit. Fill the coolant system completely, attach the pump to the radiator and start pumping away... look for all the fun spraying streams of coolant. Or take it to a shop and let them do it for you... just not either of the shops you've already been to, they seem to have their heads up their tails.

Good job. :bigthumb:

I've got a life too. Besides, it's good for you to look things up for yourself. ;)

yo cre :wavey:

well I want to drain the whole system and see what comes out from each section, so far the radiator is clean (if there were a radiator leak would it not eventually drain of water and would the reservoir coolant not get sucked into radiator as the radiator drained);

since Toyota garage did a compression test on cooling system and diagnosed no water getting to engine what else could cause no pressure in cooling system - maybe radiator leak but I am not losing any coolant volume;

filling the system up again hopefully getting the full 8.2 litres in - wouldn't this also tell me that the water is getting to the engine, perhaps.

I just want to reassure myself; see with my eyes coolant coming from each section of the cooling system with no sludge.

I don't know of another drain. If there isn't another plug that's just not covered in the manual the only thing I know of would be pulling the water pump. You should probably inspect the water pump anyway.

Can you get a picture of the broken off plug?

I don't know if draining the radiator would provide enough suction to open the cap and allow it to siphon the coolant from the reservoir; I've never left the radiator cap on while draining the system.

Cooling Systems explained - for Dummies
 

Block Test Kit should arrive in post tomorrow, will know for sure then.

Spent €200 on tools on Sunday past in local car store, payday tomorrow Friday so leads and sparks will be ordered, I think I'm going to go with Denso iridium colder sparks. I will also order #3 Cyclinder Head Cover from Toyota tomorrow.

I put the car up on ramps and found the engine block drain plug, lol. Coolant change is complete, using 5life red coolant. I used ionised water as I couldn't find demineralised or distilled water, I know there is still organic mater in ionised but feck it anyway most people use tap water anyway, I tried! To get any excess air out of system I parked car on a slope and ran the engine over and topped up - as I believe there is no bleeding system for the supra.

BLUE

Good news. Test kit came today, I tested twice, both negative, what a relieve.

TOYOTA GARAGE are w-nk-rs.

Leads and sparks it is then.

Best of luck everyone with there car problems.

HAPPY CRIMBO

I changed #3 Cyclinder Head Cover, the plugs and the leads. In the end I went with Platinum plugs as stated in the handbook.

There was alot of oil, right up to the top of the spark plug, I got it all out with rags before I removed the plugs.

The car is once again healthy. She sounds great and drives great with plenty of pick-up from her.

It was surprisingly easy. I'm very satisified with meself. This is what spared me on:

I do wish I had changed #1 and #2 covers like you advised cre. I hope they are not leaking. Anyway I may end up getting them and powder coating them while I'm at it.

Thanks again cre and everyone. I've just lite a fire and am going to fry meself a nice big sirloin steak. Haven't ate all day.

HAPPY CHRISTMAS TOYOTA GARAGE.

cre is indeed wise. i would be screwed without him.