warming up?
 

Before my car died and had to be repaired, it ran great... any given time of the day I could go out, fire her up and drive away... since I've got her back from the shop, she seems a bit sluggish, bogged down in a sense... but I've noticed she runs better when the coolant system warms up some. Infact, it's soo bad that in the mornings now, my car doesn't seem to want to start and stay running, I have to depress the gas much like I am trying to start up a carb. engine w/ no choke.. They ran diagnostic tests and found nothing wrong with the car, so their next step (before arriving at the problem of a snapped distributor) was to pull the o2 sensor and check exhaust systems.

Guess my question here is... do these fuel injected engines need a warm up period like carbs do? or could it be misinstallation of the o2 in the exhaust system that is creating these issues? it's just unsettling cause my car broke down on my way into work a few weeks ago and every morning I go to leave, she tries dying out a couple of times before I get out of my apartment complex. I don't know what to think cause I wasn't having this problem before taking it in, but unless I can prove they did something, they'll want to charge me shop fees, labor and all the other crap that comes with it. Though they're likely to pull that routine regardless if I know for sure what's going on... but I'd rather have some ammo to use than none at all.

i myself dont usually drive away until the car has been running for around 5 mins

im not posative but i dont think its good to do much more than putt along while cold in cold weather until you get "some" heat off your temp gauge...

There is a warm up period. The ECU doesn't start adjusting the fuel flow from anything beyond what the static map says until the coolant sensor says the engine is up to temp. This results in the car running rich as a safety measure.

Have you had the ignition timing checked? If you're having this problem only when the car is cold it's possible the temp sensor is not providing an accurate reading until it's in the higher temp range. As I've mentioned before, the timing is also suspect. The ECU uses a different ignition timing map when the engine is cold and as a result if your timing is off it may be WAY off when running cold.

Wh00t, you the man Cre... or woman if the rarity applies... I just recently fixed my plug to the sensor in the thermostat.. before, one of the connections was broke and shoved up inside the plug, possibly not making contact at all... however, after fixing the plug to the sensor, I notice my coolant temp gauge goes up slowly as the water warms up, rather than just jumping up to the middle automatically... However, it doesn't go past half way, regardless how hot the liquid might be... I can smell that burning coolant smell, engine will stay pretty hot for an hour after I park it from a 30 mile drive.. so I have a hunch I'm running hoter than the gauge says, and pretty sure it's not over heating as there's no steam to be found anywhere... however, I think I am running rich once my coolant is warmer than the gauge says it is... so perhaps a new sensor in the thermostat housing should fix this?

That burning coolant smell means you're loosing coolant and it's most likely hitting the exhaust. The ECU coolant temp sensor is not the same as the gauge's temp sensor... they each have their own.

Attachment 2450

Hmmmm, that picture is VERY helpfull... apparently what I did fix WAS the ECU sensor... which explains why this wanting to die out feeling when the engine is cold just began when I fixed that. I'm honestly hoping the BVSV is for a blow of valve because I have nothing at that point, the two green things the orange hoses are hooked up to terminate right there... no hoses. Guess I'll have to check the gauge sensor when I have light tomorrow...

As for the burning coolant smell, I actually smell it up near the main hose connecting the thermostat to the radiator... and to the right side of the radiator, close to the front right headlight... don't think I'm loosing coolant tho as my level in the radiator is at the cap any time I check it cold, and the overflow isn't boiling or filling up when I check it hot. :dunno: I've just assumed the smell is coming from the hot coolant being pushed back into the radiator since I have no fan shroud and the water is probably not cooling as well as it should be... believe you me, once I get all my leaks and kinks fixed, an alum. radiator w/ dual elec fans in one shroud will replace my crank fan and radiator in there now.. but I guess I'll need to get a radiator for the transmission cooling too... dunno where that's gunna go, I've already got the one for oil? in front of my current radiator now.. Even worse, this car was a manual converted to auto... no, I didn't get that backwards... and I have no idea why someone would do such a thing... but it leaves me wondering if my radiator is cooling my transmission fluid at all as is.. :\

As you can see, I still got lots to learn, but you gave a great visual aid :bigthumb: thank you :bow:

edit:
ok, so I still dunno what a BVSV stands for, but I figured out it relates with my EGR system, if I had it connected... but I find this peculiar as the car passed smog just before I bought it... and I didn't remove the hoses to the BVSV...

Skip the electric fans, for some reason no one has much luck with those instals and besides, that much current draw makes the alternator work that much harder which makes it harder to rotate. ;) If you think the stock fan causes too much resistance then look into a flex-a-lite fan, as they spin faster they flatten out reducing resistance... you'll need a different fan clutch too, the stock fan clutch would destroy the fan.

If you smell burning coolant, it's getting out of the cooling system... period. Find the leak.

Oh, I forgot to mention: A missing fan shroud may cause overheating while you're sitting at a stop light, but moving at anything over 20MPH the missing shroud isn't the problem.

The BVSV is part of the charcoal canister's plumbing. The CC is the big canister right behind the passenger side wheel well (looks like a little black barrel with two nipples on top. If it\'s missing you should fix it, it serves much more of a purpose than some people seem to think.


Here, it\'s the black can in the top of this pic:
Attachment 2451

yup yup, only time I smell the hot coolant smell is when I'm sitting at a light, or drive thru, or something else... doing 45-50 down the road, not soo much... but I'm also worried of working the engine too hard (70 mph at 3500 rpm) and generating heat that way... am I still good cause I'm moving? or do I have right to be leery and cautious in my accelerating at high speeds?

As for the Canister, I have that... two black hoses plugged into each end... not sure where one end goes, but the other comes back around and into my air intake tube.. reading the explanation of the EGR, this makes sense... but I'm just confused why the BVSV is on the thermostat housing if I can just plug the purge to my intake... I can't wait to get some pics to post... would make this much easier, and I can show of to my friends that aren't local ;)

You need to be cautions no matter what the driving conditions until you get the coolant leak taken care of. If you suddenly dump a ton of coolant while pounding on it and overheat you could do major damage. Smelling it when stopped only means that you're out running the vapors while the car is moving.. doesn't mean a thing.. other than YOU HAVE A LEAK.

As for the CC, the proper routing is for the purge outlet to run to the upper nipple of the BVSV and then from the lower nipple of the BVSV to the throttle body. Running it directly to the throttle body puts the CC under vacuum all the time which isn't really something you want as it route back to the gas tank (which you don't want under negative pressure as much as you don't want it under positive pressure). The way you have it routed right now is fine for a temporary measure if you BVSV is broken (it's not uncommon for the nipples to break off when they're this old). But it can also contribute to excessive richness in the air to fuel ratio.

With regard to the over heating, you've got a coolant leak, that's a given. You're seeing an increase while stationary due to the missing cowl, another given. One more thing to check is your ignition timing... too much of an advance or too much of a pull and your engine temps can skyrocket.
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=IG&P=20
A warn timing belt can contribute to improper ignition timing as well, but let's worry about that possibility later.

:\ yea... lots of leaks and kinks to still work out... I really do appreciate the insight, especially since you earlier stated you didn't feel like mentoring and I feel like that's what I'm coaxing out of you. For that, I'm sorry.. but at the same time, I'm grateful you're giving the time it takes to help me get the right idea of what's going on under my hood...

One last thing... is the ignition timing done thru the cams even tho it's naturally aspired? or from the distributor since it is naturally aspired? Cause I just had the distributor replaced and had timing done at top dead center... just not sure which type of timing that was...

There are two types of timing, doesn't matter if the car is N/A or Turbo: mechanical and spark.

Mechanical timing is where you align everything so that piston #1 is at 0? or TDC (Top Dead Center) and the valves are precisely where specified by the manufacturer and the distributor and cam position sensor (yes our N/A's do have a CPS inside the distributor) point to the #1 position.

Spark timing define when the spark occurs with relation to the location of the piston. The spark is actually generated in *advance* of the piston reaching TDC; hence the term "spark or ignition advance". The thing is that what you're trying to achieve here is a situation where half of the fuel in the cylinder has been burned by the time the crank reaches about 20? ATDC (After Top Dead Center) as this is where the most power is made. So, in order to acheive this the ECU adjusts the spark advance constantly while listening to the knock sensors to hear is the spark occured too soon causing a shock to the system (this occurs if the advance is too great and the fuel is igniting sooner than predicted). As a result of these factors if your timing is too far advanced or retarded you may see a power loss (and possibly a severe one) and your engine and exhaust temps will change. Your spark timing and the burn rate of the fuel is important in determining the octane you want to use in your vehicle. Too high and may lose power... too low and you may lose power... interesting eh?

Setting the ignition timing on these cars is very easy... so easy that it seems a lot of mechanics just can't manage the feat.


EDIT:Oh, and I didn't say I wouldn't help... just not about to take anyone by the hand and walk them through the wonderful world of automotive repair and modification. I am willing to help you out here and there. ;)

I should add that the ECU has a couple different maps or charts that it uses to determine the base ignition timing for a given engine temp, air temp, RPM and throttle position. The map used when the engine is cold is fairly conservative. The only map which is more conservative is the "limp mode" map which pulls a LOT of the advance out, this results in a very weak engine performance wise and can result in a rather hot engine due to the pulled timing. Limp mode is engaged when certain error codes are registered by the ECU (such as code 52: knock sensor error or malfunction).

Your spark advance and mechanical timing also affect the temperatures within the engine. Burn the fuel too soon and you've got a LOT of heat which has to go somewhere and the valves aren't letting it out... Burn the fuel too late and it's still burning when the valves open... cooler engine, HOT exhaust and as such hot O2 sensor and hot hot hot valves.

The sensor plug we fixed, according to this pic, is actually BEHIND the BVSV hoses... and has the same kinda plug as the ECU coolant sensor... but I've confirmed the ECU coolant sensor is lower than the plug we fixed... any idea what I might have fixed? :frown:

Brown plug? That's the Cols Start Injector time switch. It's a temp sensor which determines if the CSI is used and limits the duration that it's used while the engine is being cranked. The CSI (Cold Start Injector) is ONLY engaged while the engine is being cranked AND the coolant is cold. It can fix sluggishness issues while starting the car in cold weather; Generally the car will start without it in such conditions, it will just take longer. The sensor is not used for any other purposes and does not affect the ECU's operations while the vehicle is running.

yea, it was a brown plug... but now it's two seperate elec connectors with sleeves around them to prevent contact.. used ohm meter to determine on the old plug to determine which terminal which wire went on.. However, after doing said fix, the car has a harder time starting up cold than it did before and seems more sluggish than it did when this sensor wasn't plugged in correctly... sounds almost opposite of what you mentioned... :confused:

The injector may be leaking. If it is leaking you'd see those issues whether it's plugged in or not. If it's just dumping too much fuel the sluggishness should go away after a minute of driving so the extra fuel is burned off. I'm not sure if it matters which wire is connected to which terminal... if it does then you may have them switched resulting in the injector always being on.

could this issue be connected to the ERG bypass setup I've described in another thread? basically the purge port on the charcoal canister is plugged to an input to the air intake, just before the intake manifold... it's not plugged into the BVSV. Infact, the plastic light green colored connector for the hoses is broken and needs to be replaced.. I still haven't found a coolant leak, no signs of BHG either... wondering if I'm smelling vapors through there.

Another thing I did notice today, the coolant in the resevoir and the resevoir hose are chillin... not hot at all.. the part of the resevoir hose closest to radiator is, however, hot... due to surrounding thermals. Dunno if that's bad or norm... just thought I'd throw it out since my coolant system seems jacked..

Cre, I must say, you are quite knowledgeable. Your detailed posts are text book quality!

The CC is part of the Evap system (Evaporative emissions); It has nothing to do with the EGR system. I've already discussed the CC's routing and the reason for the BVSV's connection being essential for a number of reasons including: fuel pump longevity and fuel tank pressure control... I'm not going to discuss this any further. Get another BVSV from any 80's through mid 90's Toyota at a salvage yard... pick up a couple as they run over $100 new.

I will add, because I don't recall if I mentioned it specifically, that routing the CC straight to the intake can cause added richness at startup and lean the fuel setup once the engine has sucked all the gasoline vapors out of the engine creating a vacuum in the fuel tank... fix the damned thing and then you won't have to keep worrying if that's the problem.

Hose temperature means dick.. the area in front of the radiator sees great cooling. Watch the level of the coolant in the reservoir; note where it is when the engine is cold and note where it is when it is hot (I believe the proper level for each is marked on all of the overflow tanks, not just mine). If the level doesn't change then you have excessive air in your coolant system and.... you guessed it... a leak. A leak includes coolant leaking into the coolant chamber or getting blown out of the over flow tank due to combustion gasses escaping the cylinder into the coolant system at high RPMs. A lithmus test (acidity test to the guy at the parts store) will tell you if your HG is allowing gasses into the coolant.

Thank you! My patience however is not. ;) I'm no newbie to these cars as you may have noticed. It's amusing when I join new forums and start correcting posts... people get up in a huff about the "new guy"...