Timing question.
 

Today I finished reinstalling all of my power steering pump system.
I janked it all out and cleaned it up nice again. Loaded the pump.

Bled everything till I was convinced that I had no more bubbles. Took it for a few drives around the block. Came back watched it. Let it run for a half an hour. All's well. Shut her off.

30 minutes later the wife gets home and I ask her if she wants to go around
the block before I park it for the day.

When I get back. The car is idling high. From 900 to 1k rpm's. Up to 2k rpm's. I break out the timing light. And the timing has jumped forward By about 15 degrees I would guesstimate.

What could have caused this? Did I miss something? The crank pulley nut is tight. For that big a jump I would think something with the dist cap teeth internally nearly had to skip if I didn't know any better. I'm hard pressed to think the timing belt skipped. Hard pressed.

Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for reading.

have you tried to reset the timing to see if it jumps again? im assuming you dont want to tear into it though.

I'm going to mess with it tomorrow and see what I can figure out.
Hopefully someone on here will have something that will help

Ya I don't want to tear into it again, just yet I have options still before that.

Actually Fock it. I'm on it tonight.

I think the timing belt has skipped. Nothing else it could be.
I could fix it by adjusting the dist teeth forward but that's not where the problem came from. SO I'm going into the idle tensioner pulley.

Before you do anything drastic, did you jumper the terminals before you hooked that timing light up? Or did you just hook a timing light up while it was revving at 2000rpm?

The ECU advances the timing as much as 30-40 degrees BTDC depending on load, rpm, throttle position.

You might have been reading that IF you didn't jumper the terminals in the diag box.

And if you did jumper the terminals, that means you have no codes, correct?

Jumpering those terminals in the diag box is JUST LIKE disconnecting the vacuum line and pluging it on an old school vacuum advance distributor. <----- IF there are no codes.

And whoa there buddy, timing belt tensioner? WTF? Just take the upper timing belt cover off and see if the marks still line up when the crank is at 0.

It's called setting base ignition timing. If you did all of this, nevermind my rambling, I will promptly delete this post.

Did the vacuum line come off that goes to the valve on the pump. Its there to up the idle during turns at idle.??

Also, the t-belt did NOT jump teeth. Why would that happen now ?

Disconnect the battery. Let it sit for 15 min then connect it again. Drive the car around the hood for about 10 min, this should allow computer to relearn.

Did you remove the distributor to do the pump clean???

All I have done so far is crack into the timing belt.
It's solid. Then I cam back up here to check the forum.

HH: No sir. Thank you. I will go back down and place that jumper wire in.
I had assumed I didn't need to do that since I had previously timed it with the jumper wire in. Thank you very much. My purpose for going into the timing belt was to make sure the cams were at tdc with the crank.
We're on the same page. Stellar.

Mrnickleye: My next step was to adjust the dist rotor up a tooth.
But now thanks to hh I'm going to recheck the timing with the jumper wire in and see if that doesn't do it. This should put me where I need to be and I'll unplug it and roll it as well.

Edit: I had already been all over that idle line. I have it propperly secure. I'm phasing out stock clamps and going with worm clamps.

Out of curiosity..., guys. What would the car do if the dist rotor was already off a tooth? Would it have a slight sense of hesitation kind of like a baby miss or like a fowled plug? Sorry for lack of better terminology.

To be honest I am not such the mechanic to know what you mean by pump clean. So I won't even venture a guess.

Thanks guys. Very much.

Actually, given that the timing light is lighting the timing mark when the #1 cylinder is firing 10? is still going to be 10?... you'll just have less room to adjust the dizzy in one direction.

Here's what I've got.

I can adjust the timing with the jumper wire to get it right.
Now the dizzy is lifted all the way up.

It's holds correct idle upon stop and re-start. Once you go driving on the other hand. It starts speeding up and by the time I put around 3 miles on it.

It's idling at 1800 rpm's.

My game plan. Un hook the battery again. Leave it so while I dis-assemble the dist-cap. I'm having a hard time remembering if I can get to those bolts with the upper rad hose on. I'm not trying to drain my coolant, I'm out of empties.

Anyhow. Since the dizzy is bottomed out. I'm going to move it forward 1 tooth.

Any thoughts or comments before this turns into an all nighter???
I'll wait here a moment or so. Before I head back out.

Damn power steering. I finally nailed it. Now this.
2 steps forward 1 step back.

Damn. I missed the lot of you.

Something tells me that this is something other than my dizzy being off a tooth.

But I'm dead in the water till I solve it and it's just wrench time and it costs nothing to do and I can put it all back.

Something is making it idle up even after I set the timing correctly.

I think I"ll be wasting my time with the advanced tooth theory.

It's midnight already. I haven't worked on my car till the sun came up sinse last summer. I'll go back to the drawing board. If I let her get a foot hold she'll own me again.

Any codes? ;)

Check the TPS alignment and test the IDL switch in it. Also check the ECU coolant sensor.

I meant the p/s pump. You said you had it out to clean everything up. Did you have the dist. out during that work? If so, you may have it 2 or more tooth off. If not, then there is no reason to remove it, cause it didn't move on its own.

One tooth off won't make it do what your problem is.

I suspect that you co-incidentally have developed another problem. Sensor or circuit? Idle control?

That's what I was afraid of. I figured by moving the 1 tooth I wouldn't bottom it out when timing.

Did I pull the codes. Yes. Never got this one before.
It was after I had timed it and decided to check.

My check engine light was flashing non stop with no dots or dashes, you know what I mean.

Thanks guys. I'll ponder the perplexities there of.

I took it down the road and it's obviously working to pull through some hesitation in 3rd and 4th almost as if it needs a tune up.

I just put ngk iridiums in it and the msd wires don't have 2 hours on them.

I know the 1 tooth wasn't an issue so it's throwing effort after want and that's a lose lose.

So I guess I need to remove the upper rad hose after sac'ing up and draining coolant. SO I can fully remove the cam gear cover and make sure everything is at tdc and start from scratch.

I don't know if I do shite the hard way or if this is just life as I know it.

cre: Actually, at proper idle speed, and the jumper disconnected. The timing will be about 13 degrees btdc and will go higher the higher you rev.

I had a feeling you just grabbed the timing light and went gung ho.

You are just like me in that sense. When stuff goes down, you forget everything you learned and run around in circles. I think it's all that weed I smoke....

This may sound dumb, but is the throttle sticking? You say it holds an idle but after you drive it it rev's out?

Glad I could help as little as I did.

Just read this:

So I guess I need to remove the upper rad hose after sac'ing up and draining coolant. SO I can fully remove the cam gear cover and make sure everything is at tdc and start from scratch.

That should have been the very first thing you did after you checked the codes.

If all checks out ok, I'd look for a vacuum leak. You DID change the plugs and wires, vacuum lines have to come off and they don't last forever.

I hope you figure it out.

I've done the starting fluid test already. No noticable revs.

I have the cams and the crank at tdc. So I'm about to put all of that back together...., ya. I"m not done yet. The battery has been unhooked all night.

The throttle is a possibility. My lil bro was in from chicago and tightened some of that up. I thought maybe my butterfly wasn't seating as it should due to over tightening. So I'm awaiting a text on that. The throttle it self sticking? I don't think so. It was giving it to it when I was applying it. I know I'm running rich because I don't have a fuel pressure regulator yet. But this has nothing to do with, I can't get it to idle after operating temp is hit below 1800 rpm's. Hell, it drives it'self in 3rd gear. After I have timed it with the jumper wire. It's like the ecu is running amuck.

How low can I adjust the idle? I may have to move the tooth. I don't know yet. I'm grassping at straws.

I drained the coolant into a gallon jug that had a tad bit of dist water in it.
No oil floating yet so it looks good. But..., I didn't drain it completely. Only enough to get the upper rad hose off.

Something is definitley awry. I'll check back in after I hit another stopping point. Keep them comming I thank you all very very much.

EDIT: What the heck does it mean when the code light flashes consistently with no off sets???
I'm of the opinion that it means it's not throwing codes but i must confess I have not yet looked it up in my tsrm.
Atleast I'm honest.

How did the ISC look when you had it off for the rebuild? Did you clean the check valve? Something might have gotten loosen from cleaning and crapped it up.

I don't know.

I blew all of that muck out and it was more atf than anything.

Now I did have sludge in the line, upon removal. Which is why I cleaned it.
The inside of the power sterring res was black and couldn't be seen into.

Well, long story short I cleaned that biotch like my bong, and then loaded it up with lucas and drained it all out. I used gasoline to break the muck loose with a healthy dose of salt. It's a glass bong you see:).

After draining. I read the tsrm for to check myself and applied every principle. So it's not the idle control valve I promise.

The p-stump system is tight. This idle thing is something else and it's stumping me. I don't want you guys giving me answers...., just direction.

So I can learn something here. Surely you cats can respect that.

Alright I have everything back together accept the air intake.
I'm wondering what the trick is to get the ecu to reset itself????

Do I want to start it by monitoring the idle while it's cold and then check it after operating temp?

If it's idling right do I just let it run or what?

What's the next step if it's still doing its high rpm idle?

Because I have no idea other than to try it and see what happens and come back here and report.

I still keep having this nagging voice telling me to move the dizzy forward a tooth. Is this a solid mistake? Won't it give me more room to adjust the dist cap after I tighten it in? Or is it going to throw me further away from my goal?

Thanks again guys.

air/fuel mixture
vsv switches intake
unplug the battery will reset the ecu

I have codes.
24 and 51.

I can not seem to locate these in my tsrm so I'm going to try an online link.

But if anyone knows and can save me some steps.

I would be highly appreciative.

i was getting those codes when i had faulty vsv switches
one switch controls fuel vacuum
one controls egr vacuum
you can test them easily but they are hard to get at to test

they are brown plastic dealios under the intake

you need an air/fuel meter long term to keep an eye on the mix

Alright.

Code 24 is the air intake signal.
Open or short circuit in intake air temp sensor signal tha.

Code 51 HAs to do with alot of ac schmaz which I have long sense deleted. So that brings us to the TPS circuit or the TPS.

This is about as good as i get guys. Code 24 sounds like I need a new afm and a new dry flow filter. YES or NO ???

Code 51 can be there simply because I have deleted the ac unit or I have a problem with my tps. Which may as well be in sputnik.

my guess would be the fuel one is not working and you're getting more than the usual amount of air in the mix

so fella's would this raise your idle ?

you betcha it's just like turning the air screw on the throttle body

i guess it could be the egr one what do i know

it's an easy continuity test

my diag is alot cheaper than yours

vsv switches are $50 each from the dealer

Well my afm is under warranty. So I'll replace it and get a new filter for starters. Not to be rude. It's just been a long night and I'm about to rack out. I'll read this again later when I'm more coherent.

EDIT: I'm getting fuel. No problem there the walbro is kicking a$$ and taking names.
If anything I'm running rich and need a fuel pressure regulater. But I don't know at this point.

I'll have to think more on this later.

Thanks for the input.

Code 51 is *usually* from opening the IDL switch while in diagnostic mode. in other words don't step on the gas while checking codes or adjusting timing and you won't get it.


The code 24 you've been chasing for a while and I know you've already replaced the AFM once. Test the THA and (as I've said before) if it tests to spec the issue is either in the ECU (which I think you said you've also tried swapping) or it's an issue with the wiring harness (this one gets my vote).


EDIT: You know, I keep forgetting that you mentioned a high idle. Have you tested the ECU's coolant temp sensor yet?

I go to work, come home and now you have codes....LOL

Well I guess you found your problems.

As far as your codes, come on, you have a TSRM right? Now show us how good of a mechanic you REALLY are. It shows you WHAT to check when you get those codes. Don't just go throwing parts at it.

I would convert back to the stock air box and paper filter. Seriously.

That's my next stop. New dry flow filter and a new reman'd afm.

CRE..., Ya I may have tweaked the idle once while it was running codes.

I'll disconnect the neg terminal and hope that clears it out. The 51 isn't bothering me.

My car had blowby before I did the build and I'm about to change all of that.

I was throwing a code 31 but I'm not now.

And hell you're telling me I work all night to turn it on and find codes.
Dear Lord.

Well...., after removing the AFM.

I at minimum know it had to be done because it was contaminated from my old air filter.

It stank of fuel. The plastic intake pipe didn't smell nearly as strongly as the afm did.

I am taking in more air. I am in the middle of building my own c.a.i., My injectors should be max'd out with the walbro behind them. So the influx of air shouldn't be a bad thing.

I also ported and polished the complete air intake plenums inside and out with a pencil grinder. Now before you go telling me I'm daft. I have prior experience in just this thing with jet air craft engines. So I'm not just thumb dicking around.

I should have the new afm right around noon and the air filter as well.

The battery is un hooked. The jumper wire is in place. I won't fock with the gas peddle this time around and we'll check for codes and try to get it timed and tested by early afternoon tomorrow.

Thanks for reading.

Hey, nice avatar!!

I didn't know your car looked so good.

Is your car lowered?

LOL no one knows. I hardly ever post pics of the entire thing.

It's not lowered yet and currently has a cf hood. I took this pic after washing and detailing a few years ago. I don't have any new ones yet. I'm waiting for completion. Thanks for the compliment.

I still can't find a front strut tower bar. Does anyone have any ideas as to where I should look besides HPF and Titan motor sports and the dealership.

EDIT: just for the record. Today when I fill my coolant system. I'm going to try it without the belching and see what's up.

Update.

New afm new air filter which I'll post a pic of later..., cause it's special.
I get it timed. The check engine light is staying on solid. I kill it start it again after a few drags on the stogie. Start it. No check engine light, no codes...., yet. I go out to check the timing and it advanced upon start up and by the time I get back to the check engine light I'm flashing 51.

I go back out and I adjust the idle down as far as I can and it's still running around 12* after tdc.

I unplug the battery, After shutting it off. I'm going to go and try it again and see what happens. It almost has to be the throttle position sensor. I keep asking myself if moving the dizzy forward will enable me to adjust the timing in a fashion to solve the 51?????

But I really don't know. I'm just a gear head with some native talent.
I'm not a mechanic. I'm trying desperately to keep this on a level that doesn't exceed my abilities.

That being said.... Any thoughts? I'll be back after while.
Back to the garage. Thanks for reading.

EDIT: I topped off the coolant this morning. I left the funnel in with some coolant in it and shaked the car a bit and pressed on some hoses and let it sit for a good while. Till it was obvious that it was good. I lifted the funnel enough to get a finger under it. She's max'd, I capped her of at the brim and cleaned up my mess.

The car wasn't jacked up or anything. So I'll leave it till I get this 51 handled.
If she doesn't stop talking smack I may feed her a shoe.

So the afm solved the 24 code. I'm half way there.

How are you adjusting the idle? You should know better than to try and adjust it manually by now... :frown:

And wadda ya mean gotta be the TPS? You Haven't checked that yet? BTW, you shouldn't set the timing without the car at idle. From what I understand, you can do it, but when in diagnostic mode the ECU doesn't set the timing advance to a flat 10?BTDC, it merely stays on the default (RPM based) map with no adjustments per the trim sensor inputs.

Oh, and if you keep getting a code 51 then check the damned IDL switch already! sheesh...

So before even trying to time the engine I should hit operating temp 1st?

I normally get a cold reading and then when it plains out I re-adjust.

I'm not even sure what you mean about timing it manually. There's another way? Besides relocating the dist tooth or the the idle screw whick I have looked at and it's maxed out 1 way basically and I'm not sure I should move it but hell if I turn a screw it's still being done manually.

I'm not getting something here. I'm not trying to be short I'm sorry if it sounds that way. I'm just unsure of the thought process I need to allocate my time and energy to at this point. Check the tps. Ok. Now that takes a trip to the tsrm because I know nothing about it. But I do have a multi meter. So. I'll try it again after I see if trying to reset aids my plight...

Which clearly it's probably not going to.

What's IDL???

I said you shouldn't be trying to adjust the idle manually. Naturally you set the base timing manually... while at idle.

The order you need to approach this from is as follows:

Fix the cause of the error code. Code 51 is usually due to the TPS being misaligned or defective OR moving the throttle plate while in the diag mode.

Another cause for a code 51 and idle issues can be if the throttle stop screw has been improperly adjusted or if the dashpot is adjusted incorrectly or stuck.

The IDL switch in the TPS is what the ECU looks for to know the throttle is closed. Details on testing it are in the same section as the TPS alignment details. TSRM > EFI System > Air Induction system > Throttle Body (7M-GE)


Until you have got the idle back within the approximate range and the code 51 taken care of you shouldn't touch the timing. The timing can cause erratic timing issues as the engine falters, but it's not going to cause a steady increase.


EDIT: I don't think the ECU checks the coolant temp when in the diagnostic mode... I could be wrong but I think it ignores input from all of the trim sensors.

Fact: You had your TPS off of your car before.

Fact: You have code 51.

Fact: Your code 51 is 100% related to you taking off the TPS.

Give this a whirl: Loosen the TPS mounting screws and move the TPS adjustment out counter clockwise while it is running. Wait a few seconds, and see if the code is gone.

Check out this thread, pay attention to post #9. And #10.

HELP! my engine warms up in reverse order - SupraMania

I doubt this is the case but...

Code 51 is also related to the A/C system which you've removed from the vehicle. If errant currant is entering the A/C signal line to the ECU this too can cause a code 51. The solution here is to ground the A/C signal line to the ECU. (sorry I don't recall specifically which line it is though)

Alright here's where I sit. I'm adding these pics just so you guys can see where I'm working.

I had the timing set where I wanted it at idle. Now the dizzy is still max'd out. So I went to the idle screw. Minor babystep adjustment and then a re tweak of the dizzy to not have it bottomed out and I was in.

No more codes. The idle is on. Short test drive. Pull codes..., all's well.
1 more test drive. Now I can tell that the idle up for parking lot turns is working. I find myself having to rev the engine a few times to get it to quill back to base line. I make it home and it's reving at 2k rpms again.

And I'm right back to starting over. I'm closing in on it. I just need to grind it out and the 51 will be gone.

But...., why the hell does it keep coming back after a decent miles worth of test drive???? That's my problem.


Edit. I guess the dashpot is the piece in the 2nd pic. Yes, no? Well that thing Has been cleaned off and I don't think it's as springy as it should be. It seems better after I covered everything and applied pb blaster. BUt it's noticabley slow at going in and out.

Alright. I'm back to it go and get the base line set again and get rid of the 51.

Once I get this bitch starting and running and timed. I'm not going to test drive it. Something bigger is still going on.

EDIT: Thanks for that link HH. Helpful, very.