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No fire no start...! lil help please
I have a highly (bolt on) modified 94 supra, stock internals. I recently broke the cam belt tensioner. when I replaced it I had thought there was trouble with timing. come to find out I was experiecing a melting spark plug. As the plug became worse the car ran worse until it did not run. I have since replace the plugs and can not get the car to star. I have spark on the number 2 cylinder but nothing on 1 3 5 have not tested 4 yet and 6 is a pain to get to... any ideas?
I am leaning towards the crank positoin sensor... Drew |
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The problem you describe is unusual, and might possibly be related to a bad ignitor. I'd also suggest we treat this as (possibly) two separate problems: 1) Why did your sparkplug melt in the first place? 2) Why aren't you getting spark in 1,3&5? ...however, before we go too much further please post a bit more about your exact setup (i.e. your complete mods list), as well as the methodology you're using to test spark. |
Dual Fuel lines, T88 turbo, Virtual Works intake, 1600cc injectors, AEM, custom 5 inch exhaust, Block is unmodified at this time.
I do not know why the plug melted.. it was in the #4 cylinder. At this time 2 is the only verified working. I swapped out coils and pugs all into number 2 so that I could check each coil and plug on #2. 1235 coils and plugs all work I have not checked 4 and 6. if I move them to thier respective plugs the no longer work... I am testing spark by threading a conductor onto the plug and then grounding the out side of the plug with that.. turn the coil upside down and crank over.. like I said.. I get great spark on each coil and plug if I a plug into the number 2 plug.. Plugs are gapped properly |
Hmmm.... so let me get this straight. You have checked each coil and plug on the number 2 cylinder and 1235 work? But when you place the coils and plugs back to their respected places they no longer work? Am I reading this correctly?
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Now from what pwpanas has said I think he is on the right track here. First we need to ask ourselves why did the number 4 plug melt in the first place? Have you ever used nitrous? What type of fuel management do you have other than the 1400cc injectors? How long have you had this turbo kit on? And what exactly kind of plugs do you have? IMO you should put a bit colder plugs on if you are running that kind of kit with 1600cc injectors. A hot plug will melt. However, IMO if all you have is a t88 turbo with log style manifold(which causes unequal airflow) and 1600cc injectors without a better fuel pump and fpr and without any better engine management on shabby fuel then I can see why you are melting plugs. How many pounds are you boosting? IMHO, I think this problem is due to improper engine management and the motors unability to cope with such a thing. Now I am probably maybe wrong here but if the coils are working on the number 2 cylinder and they arent working in their respected positions then their is something seriosuly wrong with this picture here. I turn this over to pwpanas for he is more knowledgeable about this car than I am. I am sure as long as you are informative to pwpanas he will be able to diagnose and properly aid you in what you need to do to fix it. Sorry I couldnt be more helpful. |
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That said, I'd still suggest you try swapping your ignitor if you can find another Mkiv Supra owner in the area. If your ignitor is good, our next step will be to find out if all of your AEM's ignition channels are still good. Also, are you running an ignition amplifier of any sort (CDI or DLI)? And is your AEM set up to use waste spark ignition? If so, note that your #2 and #5 ignition signals are driven out of the same AEM output...which means that your #5 coil & plug should fire at the same time as #2. This is another reason I suspect your ignitor may be related to the problem. ...and even after your ingition starts working again, we still need to figure out why your plug melted (in order to proactively and positively make sure this same set of problems doesn't happen again). |
I appologize..Let me explain better.
From the begining... I was driving and noticed the car had less power and sounded different (misfiring) On my way home I broke the cam belt tesnioner throwing the car out of time but still able to run enough to get me home. (one time its good to still have a stock block) I replaced the tensioner with a billet one. put the car back in time and it ran again with the same lack of power and still sounding differnt. I decided to put fresh fuel in the car (91octane) and take it for a spin (I know I need race fuel!) while driving the car spit sputters and threw a bomb out the back end ran for a few seconds more and then died. I towed the car back to my house and began to troubleshoot.... and now here is what I found..... Number 4 plug electrode was melted away: I replaced the nuber 4 plug only and gapped it according to what 1 2 3 were gapped. I tried to start the car and would not start. At that point I decided to check spark: Pulled #2 plug and coil pack (#2 is super easy to get to thats why) It sparked.. Pulled number 1 plug and coil pack. No spark I took plug from 1 and checked with number 2 coil pack on number 2 harness connection... I had spark.... good plug! I then moved number 1 plug and number 1 coil pack to the number 2 harness connection and checked for spark..... I have spark! These are the same symptoms for 1 3 4 5 6! Good plugs, Good coils.. no spark. Basically I am only getting signal to the number 2 harness plug to initiate the spark. All modifications were completed by Ryan Woon at WOTM. As of now I have no reason to doubt his desgn. His only recomendation to me was to run with race fuel as much as possible. Boost is as low as the controller will allow me to go.. roughly 16psi. Plugs are a 7 heat range NGK VPOWER |
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Your broken tensioner bracket could still have caused valve(s) to be bent if your head were decked and if you're running 272 or 280 cams (are you? ...or are you running stock cams too? )...but either way a failure in the cam timing should not have any effect on the ignition. About the only semi-related item is the 'toothed' crank position sensor gear attached to the crankshaft's timing belt gear. When you plug a laptop into your AEM are you getting an accurate RPM signal while trying to start the engine? Another troubleshooting step you should take (imo) is a compression test. Although this is not directly related to the ignition problem, it can help determine if you have either bent valves or scored cylinder walls (from spark plug debris). |
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Again, are you running an ignition amplifier of any sort (CDI or DLI)? It all appears to be stock "Toyota Denso part numbers" And is your AEM set up to use waste spark ignition? I do not know... I will find out as soon as Ryan answers his phone! |
Okay...I thimk we may be getting somewhere..... I hooked into the AEM .......no Engine RPM...
Would this be a good time to assume my CPS system has a problem...? |
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Can you post pictures of your engine bay? |
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my web server is currently down so I can not post pics... I will have it up in a day or so and would be more than happy to post.
ok here is what I have found.. The belt istalled by me.. was riding very far back on the cam gears and main.. the caused the "indicator star" <-- not sure what to call it to be pushed off the back of the crank. now my problem is..how do I get it back on.. it is currently spinning freely |
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Be sure to follow all the steps in the TSRM when you remove and replace the timing gear. IF this corrects your ignition problem, I'd strongly recommend that we continue this thread until we figure out exactly how your sparkplug melted...and figure out what needs to be done to avoid this in the future. |
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Again, I'm not sure the thickness of the threaded bolts ('M6' is what I would guess), but it's the same as all of the other bolts & studs on the car that have a 10mm nut. I'd estimate the length of the two bolts you need to be about 3 or maybe even 4 inches. One time when I did this job, I used four of the studs & nuts that you'll find holding down your valve covers on the inside corners. (I had these four spares laying around), and I welded each pair of them together, end-to-end. That made them long enough to do the job. |
and a nice easy way to put it
if ya got a melted spark plug... i can gaurantee you have melted pistons = bad compression = bad running = tear down time experienced this 3 times on one engine unfortunately |
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I'd recommend getting (borrow) a 'boroscope' to look at the piston.
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Also ime these compression numbers are VERY VERY low, relatively speaking. Although readings do vary a bit between compression test gauges and depending on the exact procedure used for the compression test, (fwiw) I've never seen (only) 100psi in any 2jz-gte that is "fine". In other words, I agree with Suprra_girl & MrNickleye that the internals of this 2jz-gte need further inspection, and likely some (or a lot of) work+parts. |
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Now of course the 2jz blocks are strong to begin with but like every motor it has its limit. 1400cc injectors with a T88 turbo is obviously pushing it. Also we dont know what type of engine management you are using but if its not adequate then that could mean problems as well. Now imho I would tear it down and do a complete engine rebuild with forged goodies to prevent that from happeneing again. Oh and if you are running that much boost and fuel I would highly recommend getting a standalone or at least the emanage. |
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Also note we don't know which model of GReddy T88 that he's running, nor do we know his target/max boost level, nor the type of fuel he plans to run. Why are you making assumptions and jumping to conclusions about what do do with his engine, before we're even sure if we have his ignition problem solved? Quote:
...what did you think he was talking about - a cold-air intake? :rolleyes: Quote:
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Again, please don't post on technical threads in this forum anymore, unless it happens to be a thread that you're certain you know what you're talking about. For example, if you've EVER personally worked on a Supra as highly modified as 94T88Widebody's please post your reference(s) immediately (yes, I will contact them). If not, please don't further pollute threads like this with any more of your wild guesses. Your lack of understanding, misinformation and potentially bad advice is getting in the way of us trying to help 94T88Widebody get his ignition & engine problems solved... |
no need for argument here! I am well on the way to getting that damn gear off the main.. What a pain... it is about 90% off and I needed a quick break.
I understand that I have low compression. I fully plan to build a block that can keep up with my externals. I know now even with the low compressoin the car is running 788 to the wheels on C16 with 32psi of boost. I am still pumping ryan for the Dyno sheet.. I think he has forgoten I than EVERYBODY for thier opinions... I do appologize for not having the images you guys want to see just yet...you can see some images as the parts were being added and you can see an exterior shot in my myspace profile www.myspace.com/dingholla |
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I'd suggest that, as soon as we verify your spark is functioning properly again (after the CPS gear has been repaired), we begin troubleshooting on your engine's compression (and melted plug in #4) ... as well as the various options to best resolve those problems. For example, we need to delve into: precisely state your horsepower goals, identify the exact type of fuel you plan to run (c16 full-time?), and detail your application (eg. drag racing?). Until we've identified all of these items, and gone through a proper troubleshooting process, it may be premature to conclude that your block must be 'built'. Among the troubleshooting steps I'd suggest include another compression test (with a different gauge and some tips I'll give you to ensure optimal accuracy), followed by a leakdown test...but again let's ensure your ignition is 100% fixed after you reassemble, and then we can get into the other issue. |
just a quick note.. the car is running great.. I will be back for the follow ups soon... I was not running C16...
I was running 91 octane and 18lbs of boost... the block is STOCK |
engine bay pics you wanted
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If you don't mind me saying so though, that's an awefully big turbo, intake & throttle body to be running with stock cams... Are you sure your turbo is a GReddy T88? From those pictures, it doesn't look like a GReddy T88 to me... |
Its a GT47-88.... I never said it was a Greddy
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As I said earlier (and no matter who manufactured your turbo), your engine bay is sweet! :) This was the point of my post, not to start an argument about turbo nomenclature. In addition, there's a very significant horsepower difference in a GReddy T88 and (what we now know is) your GT47-88 ... my comment about your turbo not looking like a GReddy was trying to clarify the exact specs of your setup, for future troubleshooting purposes. Also note that (from the pictures you posted) I don't see either an HKS DLI or an AEM CDI mounted in the engine bay. If you're not running an ignition amplifier with your AEM, you will experience ignition misfiring under high boost. Although this might partially explain the misfire you talked about, the 18+psi you were running on 91 octane pump gas was likely a primary contributor to both your melted sparkplug and your "100 - 120 psi" compression. Again, to best recommend next steps to help you avoid melted sparkplugs, low compression (engine damage), etc. in the future, please shed some light on your horsepower goals, identify the exact type of fuel you plan to run (c16 full-time?), and detail your application (eg. drag racing?). ...and do you plan to spool up that big GT47-88 with any NO2? P.S. Did you buy your Supra from Chris Msungi? I showed your engine bay pictures to a friend of mine, and he says he recognizes your widebody Supra (less the HKS Twins) from when Chris brought it to Tx2K3... |
Yes this was Musgni's supra.. It was a very poorly built motor (still is) As we discussed via messenger, Torque specs are key... sooo many things on the car were done for "pretty sake"
All that aside... I am happy with my current hp.. I am not looking to run some super duper high drag run...The car looks great and it is very fast just under 800hp. I am setting out to make it a more reliable car... sooooo.. a motor rebuild will be coming sometime and when I do the car will be capable of insane power but once agian I will be running 18psi o boost too keep my ass out of jail... Drew |
top-tuner
Hi guys,
does anyone know if the crankshaft sensor with two wires must get a 5 volt from ECU ?? The wire colors are black/red and brown just asking because my engine has also a on/ off spark issue !!:nuts: GRT.. |
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