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One Piece Drive Shaft? experiences?
OK Guys,
We are upgrading our 88 NA, getting it ready for the next 24 hours of lemons race. Keep in mind it's about 14 hours of racing - dependability, longevity and reliability, thats the key here. So we are looking at switching to a 1 piece drive shaft. Anyone know why toyota originally chose a 2 piece? we have had no problems with the 2 piece, but changing out the bearing is pricey, and having to get the ujoints pressed in, a PITA. So what is the qadvantage of the one piece? does it create any issues with drive shaft angle? and any dependabilty? Information and experience are valued here. WAGs don't help us much! thanks Carl Johansson Johansson Brothers Racing pS - "Slap a turbo on it" is not the solution we are looking for here! |
no experience with the supra driveshaft change, never messed with mine when i had it.
ive changed other driveshafts out without problem (dads 98 taco and a couple mustangs). personally, i hate carrier bearings with a fiery passion and think they should go back and kick the crap out of the cunt-hole that spawned them... but im ranting. ill see if i can find stock drive shaft angles for the U-joints, and as long as youre within the limits, you should be fine. i think its around 4-5*, but ill look around. |
looks like 2-3 degrees is stock uncancled is stock. so as long as its not bent way outta wack, you should be fine.
just check both output and pinion angles and if its not over a couple degrees you should be fine. just be aware that youll get more vibrations through a fully solid shaft. (lemons car, gotta be comfy! haha) |
The 2 piece drive shaft is just to reduce driveline vibration on our luxurious sport cars. Cant have vibes splashing our coffee everywhere! It also helps to distribute the load better across the extra u-joints, resulting in joints that seem to last nearly forever. A 1 piece shaft is definitely more suitable for racing, you probably wont notice a difference since you're thrashing the car anyway. Aluminum should be fine for an n/a engine. If it were making big power, I would stay with steel. I've driven supras with 1 piece and 2 piece shafts and felt a definite difference in vibrations at certain speeds but nothing terrible.
If you stay within the angles hilux has posted and use a well balanced driveshaft, you may not even notice a difference. If you decide to keep your stock shafts and end up trashing the support bearing, I've learned that a 92 Ford Ranger (2WD 3.0L) uses a nearly identical bearing at a 3rd of the price. |
El Supracabras, I do agree with you. So many of the Supra owners are kids and trashing their cars. The child who I bought mine from had a one piece in him. My guy had a funny vibration at 50 mph and it got worse with speed. The little frackers trick ruined both of the axles and the differential.
So in the end you may get a little more speed at the expense of destroying the car. Think about the drive assembly coming apart during a high speed race. So it then becomes a safety issue. I could care less as long as you are destroying American mussel cars. Oh update my guy is in the paint barn. Until now "I have seen better cars in the junkyard" has been the usual response from people. :D |
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gonna start a 5 speed swap and twin turbo project on my buddies 06 f150 this next year. that oughta be interesting: 600 hp twin turbo 5 speed 06 4x4 f150 rolling a 4 inch lift and 35s (he already has 35s on with a 2" level). can you say, corvette surpriser? anyway, im gettin off subject. i think as long as the shaft you get is balanced properly you will be perfectly fine. an aluminum shaft, as long as its a decent one, would even be strong enough for a GTE. there are 600+ hp camaros and firebirds runnin around with 2.5-3 inch aluminum shafts. i used a stock 1LE aluminum shaft for my 84 z28 and had close to 400 hp. never had a problem.:bigthumb: |
The punk that sold me my car needs to be drawn and quartered or better forced to drive only government motors cars or trucks. The bleepard had put a one piece ford drive shaft in mine :rant2:
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now ranma, there are cheap ppl here, but most of us are "budget minded" (ie: basically cheap haha)
i dont mind spending some bux to make my car/truck better. but when it comes to 80 dollar bearings that have gone out within 5-8k miles, that adds up, and it shouldnt be that way. ive had to replace my dads carrier bearing 8 times since hes owned the truck. that is the only thing besides brakes, air filter, plugs, wires and oil changes hes had done. we finally put a one piece driveshaft in, and voila, works perfect with no problems, for the past 35k. a one piece drive shaft takes less power to turn, therefore providing more power to the ground. so if you do a performance build it is advantageous. in the case of carl's (thread starter) he wants a drive shaft that is easier to change u joints in, and one that he doesnt have to replace the carrier bearing so often in. he pushes this car pretty hard. so a one piece driveshaft enables him to have longer running intervals before replacement of u joints, as well as more power to the ground, while sacrificing minimal ride comfort. for his application, it works and is reasonable. for a daily street driven supra, the stock 2 piece driveshaft is definitely more comfortable and suits it just fine. |
Well Carl is into drifting and it destroys cars. I have oh 35 years of driving experience in all type of cars and can not remember having the u joints of any of my cars go out. This includes some high millage "heart breaks of America". My Fire Chicken had 220,000 miles on it when I finally sold it. I bought it new and one of my fondest memories is the slight of it driving toward Mexico.
As for restoring my Mk III, it is costing me a lot of money. It was not a question of replacing pieces of it but entire systems. Replaced the exhaust system from the head to the diffuser. Rebuilt the engine block, replaced the steering, replaced the drive shaft, rebuilt the differential and axles. The little jerk had overheated the engine cracking the head and blew out the cat. That destroyed the exhaust. After I am done will be a sweat ride *grins* He is in the pain barn and we found new trim pieces. My point is it is better to spend a little extra upfront to avoid paying over and over. |
ranma,
I take offense to your characterization of me, and your suppositions . I do not drift any cars. not my bag. I do though race cars, in my opinion the most noble thing you can do with a car. if i wanted to never break a car, I would put it in my living room and polish it up every day, and never drive it. Instead I choose to use my supras, we have 3 of them right now, all 3 were rescued from the car crusher, 2 are now running race cars, the 3rd is used for a parts car. i do usev my cars and trucks as tools, They are for me to have fun in, as well as for me to use for work. breaking a car is not destroying it, all cars ever built break down and require replacement parts! I drive over 50K miles per year, 20 K of that in a toyota 4runner decked out for 4 wheeling - which for me is not a hobby, but a tool, as i spend 4 months of the year surveying abandoned mines here in the west. That requires many miles of offroad driving - not for fun! If that vehicle breaks I'm in for 20 - 50 miles of hiking to get out, unless I find help. So I do know how to maintain my vehicles, and get the most out of them. There are not alot of other people who can claim 135 hours of road racing without a single breakdown! We can! I am glad you hasve never had Ujoints go out - congratulations - that must be some sort of record! QUOTE=Ranma;98485]Well Carl is into drifting and it destroys cars. I have oh 35 years of driving experience in all type of cars and can not remember having the u joints of any of my cars go out. This includes some high millage "heart breaks of America". My Fire Chicken had 220,000 miles on it when I finally sold it. I bought it new and one of my fondest memories is the slight of it driving toward Mexico. As for restoring my Mk III, it is costing me a lot of money. It was not a question of replacing pieces of it but entire systems. Replaced the exhaust system from the head to the diffuser. Rebuilt the engine block, replaced the steering, replaced the drive shaft, rebuilt the differential and axles. The little jerk had overheated the engine cracking the head and blew out the cat. That destroyed the exhaust. After I am done will be a sweat ride *grins* He is in the pain barn and we found new trim pieces. My point is it is better to spend a little extra upfront to avoid paying over and over. [/QUOTE] |
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I hear you and please accept my apologies, did not mean to offend. We have a lots of kids near me who drift in the streets and vacant parking lots. It gets on my nerves... Anyhow please forgive my assumptions. Quote:
So how would a one piece drive shaft help you? Mine had a vibration starting at 55 mph and getting worse with speed. The vibration was making the fillings lose in my mouth. We tried everything to rid ourselves of it. Decided to ditch the ford drive shaft and rebuild everything aft of it. My guy runs like a champ now *grins* Drive train is smoother than my 09 daily. I do agree with you, cars are meant to be driven, not driving them is worse then driving. So tell me more about your racing. What type is racing is a Supra good at? Would love to top end mine at a track ;) You are right cars are meant to be driven. |
toyota went to a 2 peice because it reduced noise and vibration at higher speeds..
the reason why theres so much noise and vibration is because theres a driveshaft length limit until it starts to rotate alil more oblong then usual.. (drive shaft, 2 piece or not, rotate in a oval shape not a true circle) you have 68" around 60-68" you should switch to a 2 peice just to reduce vibration and have a lil more smoother drive.. sadly this takes away torque... there is no problem with a one peice tho |
http://shaftmasters.com/toyota-supra...iveshaft3.html
Read some posts on forums about guys running this shaft, I purchased one, but did not install it yet, quality looks great! |
nor do i destroy vehicles just to do it. i have saved more 3rd gen camaros and toyota pickups from the rust pile than i can count.
but in the same note, i do drive my vehicles, and hard (no i dont drift. wouldnt mind trying, but there are tracks for that). i try and build everything so it will last as long as possible and dont cut corners. hence why ive been taking so long building the motor for my pickup right now. i have literally taken apart, cleaned, reconditioned and reassembled EVERY nut, bolt and part on this motor. why? cuz i dont want to have to do it again any time soon. this goes the same for the rest of the drivetrain, body, interior etc. neway. i can understand you being upset kids terrorizing the neighborhood. we have the honda-heads here in spokane driving like retards all the time. |
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i doubt there are many speeds getting up over 100, but as long as the driveshaft is balanced, there will be no problem with vibration. yes harmonics do destroy things, but not if proper balance i achieved. a driveshaft is just spinning. an engine is more complicated than that because its not just something rotating, it has parts that are linear and there are explosions going off milliseconds from eachother. these all create harmonic vibrations, and that is why there are damper pulleys as well as manufacturers trying to balance engines to a certain degree (aftermarket balancing is almost always better, more precise, etc) for him, a 2 piece driveshaft would be a more logical choice, as i puts more power to the ground and eases his maintenance on the car. Lemons is a budget type racing event. |
excess vibrations? why? how?
I'm not sure what would be the issue causing this vibration many of you speak of. Most vehicles have one piece drive shafts, and do not suffer from excessive vibration, so I am wondering what is it specifically that makes the Supra more prone to vibratioin, so much so that engineers went to a 2 piece drive shaft to reduce the vibration - which in actuality would not eliminate the source of the vibration, just mask it.
So I guess I am, looking for more than -" well it vibrates more!" We have no problem with the 2 piece, other than excessive maintanence costs, and more "complexity" which typically ends up being less reliable. We never plan on changing a drive shaft or U joints at a race, but you never know - and seeing as how you spend alot of money to prep a car, and alot more money to get to the race, once you are there, you want to maximize your racing dollar. Our primary goal is always to finish the 15 - 18 hours of racing - still running! (even though this is "cheap racing" a weekend of racing costs us about 2500 bucks, entry, tires 75 - 100 gallons of fuel , hotels etc, not including transportation to and from the track, and not including the car prep, which typically is 2 - 3 K after all of the safety stuff you have to have, and all of the systems you have to repair) So we figure if we went with a 1 piece, it would change out easier in an emergency, the Ujoints could be changed in 15 minutes at the track, instead of finding someone to press those things out and screw with the carrier bearing! I plan on having the one piece professionally built, and balanced, Don't know if that would eliminate some of the "vibrations" many of you speak of. Anyone know or have an idea why the one piece is creating the reported vibrations (other than a misfit drive shaft, bad ujoints, or incorrect installation? Rana, Google up 24 hours of LeMons to see the kind of racing we do! in our opinion the supra is pretty well suited for this race series! 87 hilux, just saw your response - most is accurate, but the races are on road tracks, so 2 - 3.5 miles long, left, right, up down, we run on some of the best tracks in the country. We will be running at Infineon in 2 weeks, same course as the NasCar boys, with some added pieces those nascar guys whine about (so no carousel for them - cause they wear ballerina tutus!) we often hit speeds of 120 - 130 at the end of the longest straights, followed by panic breaking down to 35 mph to make the next corner. We shift 20 - 35 times per lap, so you better know how to heal and toe! Good place to learn to become a road racer, great place to have fun! Carl Johansson |
Well Carl,
When I first bought my Supra brought him down to the toyota dealer. The U joints in him were bad, so sent the drive shaft down to the shop. So the U joints were changed in a professional shop and it was balanced. Well that did not eliminate the vibrations. Sent it back to the shop while replacing an axle and rebuilding the differential and the other axle. Put it back tougher and still had the vibration. At this time "genius" realized it was the drive shaft when I saw Ford on it. Got a replacement 2 piece, sent it to the shop. Put him back tougher and the drive is as smooth as smooth itself. What you do does sound like fun, but not sure if I could take the g forces on the sharp turns. Do be careful Carl and enjoy your racing time :) You are right a sitting car is so much decoration. |
The excessive vibrations are probably from a poorly executed conversion. If you plan on using a professional service to build a driveshaft I would think (hope) you wouldn't have any problems. In Ranmas case, it sounds like the kid she bought the car from didn't care about or more likely didn't know what he was doing. The 2 piece is pretty stout, but ripping the rubber out of the center bearing in the middle of a good race would suck. Race cars are supposed to rattle, right?
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As for the vibrations in a race car, the car is loud, jumpy vibrates all over the place from all sorts of things, but you would be amazed at how in tune you are to it. You can easily pick up a loose exhaust, and ID that, you can pick up a drive shaft, and ID that as either drive shaft or tires. The biggest difficulty is sorting out if the tire just picked up some melted rubber from another tire - it will vibrate and bounce like crazy till it wears off, or if you have a real tire problem. Plus everything is hard mounted, so you feel every vibration! |
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Actually, the two piece is more to do with longevity and preventing the DS from grenading on you (and yes, it helps with vibrations but don't put it past Toyota to know how to build a balanced drive shaft... They would have if not for other factors , I'm sure, they're MUCH cheaper). You can find a LOT of information on this already online including a lot of wonderful pictures of exploded one-piece DS'd sticking out rear seats or gas tanks or taking out cars behind the vehicle it was installed in. It's the whole reason DS loops/cages are required at tracks. It's all about elasticity, centrifugal force and the outward fatigue it causes. Aluminum is the most susceptible (also the worst for vibration), steel is less susceptible and CF the least (although I believe CF may have more vibration tendency than steel).
I'll see if I can find a calculator for critical rotation speeds (this is just the speed at which the most stress is seen, it doesn't mean that if you drive at that speed one you're dead... I think on the 4.30:1 it was something low like 80MPH with a one-piece aluminum DS and stock size tires). Bah, I don't have time today to dig for all the fun pictures Google image search used to show, they've changed the sorting priorities of something. Anyway, from what I've seen with fatigue the metal shafts will spiderweb and tear in multiple places. From too much power it usually looks more like a torn paper towel roll or crumpled. Carbon fiber looks like an expensive broom when it goes (not a lot of damage potential other than the spline and forward U-joint). The Stock two piece has a critical rotation speed about three times that of a one piece. The two piece also serves to dampen shock through the drivetrain. You can get a lighter two piece made for little money and retrofit a more common carrier bearing OR have a one piece with a thicker center sleeve welded in essentially shortening the drive shaft into two and thus raising the ceiling a bit. Vibration will kill seals, bearings and U-joints but the DS isn't going to just pop like a cartoon gun with a finger in it. Of a final note a lot of drive shaft shops will tell you you need to check the DS every few thousand miles for signs of spider webbing or cracking (especially one this long)... do it; It's cheap insurance and really beats having the ass of the car try to pole vault on the highway. I've only known a couple people who've had trouble with their on-piece DSs on MKIIIs, those were aluminum. I've always run steal (on various cars) and never had a problem. |
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