New to Supra's had a few Q's
 

Hi my name is Chris, I was wanting to learn a few things about an 87 Supra, and thought this forum would be a good place to find out. I've discovered that the best way to learn about a car is to talk to the people that have them. My gf's kid is looking at an 87 Supra turbo he wants to buy, according to the owner it supposedly only needs a headgasket. I am an enthusiest of the turbo Dodge cars of the 80's-90's Daytona's, Shadow's, Omni's etc.. I know alot about those but I dont know jack about the Supra's lol
I had a few questions about the car and engine. It is an 87 turbo inline 6, only mods listed are a 3.5" from turbo to cat, and a 3" cat back along with some Tien ss coilovers. How would I find out what series engine it has in it? Are the engines cast iron with aluminum head, or all cast iron? If aluminum is it common and necessary for the head to be planed? Do these motors use torque to yield head bolts? What headgasket would you guys recommend, something like a multi-layered steel, or would composite be ok? I'm going to have him look for signs of detonation, on a turbo Dodge a blown headgasket could be an indicator of too much boost, lean condition. Is there anything particular to this generation of Supra he'll need to check for before considering buying the car? Thanks in advance for any help/info you guys could offer :D

Well, you've got me with the Daytona but I'll pass on most of the rest. ;)

This belongs in the MKIII section (1986.5 - 1992 (1993 in Japan) is the MKIII).

Unless it's been swapped (a good thing to find out) it will be a 7M series. This is the only series which came to North America and was the ONLY engine in the MKIII Supra until '89. Turbo models are the 7M-GTE and N/A are the 7M-GE. These are cast iron blocks with aluminum heads. They came with a composite HG from the factory which they are notorious for blowing... This is due to too low of a torque specification (Spec is only around 56ft lbs, should be around 75ft lbs for bolts and around 95ft lbs for studs). The fasteners are not TTY and may be reused if they pass a close inspection; I don't reuse 20yo fasteners but they should be fine if they're not pitted and haven't been torqued beyond their capacity.

The head should definitely be milled. If the block deck is flat and true and free of pitting or warpage you may use an OEM composite HG with little concern for it failing. For higher performance builds a MLS is a common choice, but for this you really have to get the block deck cut too; From the factory they just weren't smooth enough.

Detonation damage isn't terribly common... at least not in systems which are largely stock. But yeah, if you've got to take the head off, well, you're already there.

Other than the HG problem there's not much else that doesn't come with any 20+yo performance car which people like to buy just to beat the snot out of... ;)

Good luck to ya!

AHHH the good old Daytona, I love those cars.
Being the car is so old depending on how many miles it has, and what the original owners have done to it is very hard to tell what needs done if its not running. like CRE said the head is very bad about warping. If you rebuild it, the factory Toyota rebuild kit comes with a good composite head gasket (vs. asbestos original) good up to about 14psi I was told. Check the center support bearing on the drive shaft, if the drive shaft flops around that is a very expensive part, or you can swap out to aluminum drive shaft. Check for water in the back quarter panels through the plastic doors, or rust where the spare tire is. They are notorious for leaking. Osaka.com sells running japan domestic motors for cheap which could be a good way to, but you could rebuild the motor for less and know it is good. :-)

Awesome! Thanks! Thats just the info I was looking for. Apparently it's an 85K car, if it's the headgasket then hopefully it would just be a matter or normal wear and tear and not cause someone beat it too badly, lol He's excited to have found a turbo Supra, but it wont be turned into a performance build, glad to know a composite can go on it so long as the deck is in good shape. Also I wanted to ask aren't these interference engines? Is there any special procedure for the timing belt? On the "Turbo-III" Chryslers the belt is so finnicky, a special tool is used to measure the hertz of the belt vibrating to properly tighten it. If he picks it up I might be assisiting him with the gasket, I dont want to jump in blind, lol Would you guys suggest the use of a head shim after the head is milled or would that be a bad idea? Thanks again for all the info I really appreciate it! :D

Thanks! I'll have him check the driveshaft and spare tire well too. I love the Daytona's too, I have 2 lol, also an Omni GLH and Shelby CSX (Dodge Shadow) He's never had a turbo car so not pushing it past 14psi would probably be a good idea. the seller says that once the headgasket went it was parked and hasn't moved since. He's going to look at it tommorrow so hopefully I can get a better idea of what condition it really is in.
Thanks Again for the info!

Sounds great only 85k original miles. Don't forget to open the back plastic "doors" in the rear hatch and put your hand down in the rear quarter panels to check for any standing water. I had no problem like that with the timing belt. I completely rebuilt mine on my own with some help from my dad (a Mopar fanatic) . The timing belt uses the tensioner to set it, make sure you take a pic of the cam gears at top dead center so when you put it back together you will know it is the same. Once you put the belt on and release the timing belt tensioner, you turn the motor over by hand 2 times, then check that it is right with no loose spots, or the same tension on both sides. If you need parts http://www.sipracingmailorder.com/servlet/StoreFront is the bomb and Rich is a great guy. Hope it works out for you Chris! If you get the car PM me and I'll mail you a factory shop manual for it. I like when people take initiative to get these cars going. I know where one is that is just setting and the guy will not come off it, and I am too broke to flash some money at him to change his mind.

The 7M never came with an asbestos HG. (It's argued that the torque spec was for an asbestos HG, but that's not likely either due to other design factors.)

Here's an online version of the Toyota Service & Repair Manual for the MKIII:

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/

It's for a '90 or '91, but the differences aren't too great.

EDIT: Oh, and I wouldn't go beyond 12psi or so really... 14psi and you're getting close to the peak efficiency of the CT-26 and on a hot day performance will suffer as may the hardware. Think of 14psi as the cap.

Cool, thanks for the link. Sorry thought it was asbestos, I was told the new ones you get OEM are way better (and could hold up possibly to 14psi) then what they come with 20 years ago though. The thing is everyone said "oh get a MLS head gasket" and its like "dude, I'm not even trying to boost it, just get it up to par so it will be reliable" I am running stock turbo on mine with no intention of changing it, just saying a composite is just as good for normal people. I have ass loads of power, cant wait to dyno.

Thanks, I'll know tommorrow if he gets it or not! If so I'll definitely hit you up, the manual will help when the head goes back on :D Thanks again to all, everyone's been great and the info has been very helpful! I'll post back as to whether he gets it :D

The problem really never was the head gasket; Yes, it has changed... the rings and jackets are all about 1mm beefier and I'm sure the materials have advanced as well.... But if you really think about it the average MKIII HG lasted 15+ years.

Sure, on a clean engine with a perfect deck and head the composite could take more than that. It's a matter of longevity though. Everything breaks, some things sooner than others. I wouldn't really go more than 12psi on a daily basis for the sake of the HG either. Whether it MIGHT hold up better than a lot of other people have experienced isn't something I like to bet my own engine on; I've been bit in the ass that way a few too many times in the past.

On a related note, when prepping for a composite head gasket you do not want a "smooth as glass" surface. Unlike the MLS HG the composite does better if it has the additional surface area and 'bite'.

Yes CRE, right again, the head bolts were not torqued good enough causing the head gasket to blow... All I know is I was told that the new OEM head gasket are much better then the original ones and there should be no problem if your not trying to boost the heck out of it. Also with ARP bolts torqued to 115 foot lbs, that bitch is not going anywhere.

Except that that's miles beyond ARP's rating and most likely beyond their yield capacity... No, stretched out head bolts aren't going to do anything except possibly warp the head (which isn't very beefy, I'm pretty sure I've posted pictures of a cross cut head before). You've got a load of reading and studying to do.

For the record, the torque for head bolts (ARP orToyota) should not exceed 75ft lbs (when properly lubricated with a good moly grease and the threads in the block properly chased) and studs no more than 95ft lbs. At this level there is still elasticity in the fastener and there will naturally be a small safety margin (both of which I suspect you're past)... They're made this way for a reason.

OK, check this out dude the head is plenty beefy. But you call this number right here 805-339-2200 and ask them what their head BOLT torque specks are for 7mgte. I even called to double check to make sure the paper was right. http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/sho...s-Torque-Specs
or
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...torque-on-them
Tell me what they said. What car do you have and what are you running in it? Did you do all the work yourself of did you pay someone else to do it for you??

I don't need to call them....

From your own link:
80 ft/lb with moly <---- holy crap! Even other people know!
120 with 30 weight oil.

That post is still high, but barely so. The ARP come with moly grease so unless you're using used fasteners and too cheap to get good lube you'll be using moly.. and thus... 75ft lbs. That also happens to be the approximate ISO specification for the fastener type and size.

[Looking at the wrong spec, I'll see if I can dig up the instruction sheet from a set] Actually, if you look at their website ARP specifies 50ft lbs (a revision which I'm surprised to see... I can probably dig up a couple old install sheets if I haven't thrown them out when I last cleaned): http://www.arp-bolts.com/instructions/203-6004.pdf [<--Spec for the rod bolts; See edit below.] US ISO for that fastener dimension is 72ft lbs.

I already said that I think I've posted a picture or two of a dissected 7M head, unless you've done the same don't go on about how "beefy" it is.

I haven't paid another mechanic to work on a car of mine in decades... I generally get paid for fixing other people's cars.... any other questions? Here's a hint, say no, I'm ready to make you the second person I've ever banned from this site.... you're really pissing me off.


EDIT: Scratch that on the spec sheet... just realized that was their rod fasteners... I thought that was weird. I'll dig up the head bolt specs in a bit.

EDIT2: There isn't an online guide for ARP 203-3902, but it you just Google "7M-GTE torque spec" you'll get a few THOUSAND hits (many of those from people who catually bought the hardware and READ the instructions stating between 70 and 80... I'm pretty sure it was 72 or 75 but it sure as shit isn't 115+, not on a new install and not using professional assembly lubricants.

If you're retorquing, the fasteners are unlubricated at all really and any torque reading you see is not to be trusted at all; They will generally be significantly higher than actual.

I belive when I put in my in my arp head studs the spec was 90ftlbs, and the studs have a higher spec than the bolts do.

That measurement at the site you linked to is FOR STUDS (which have a much higher torque than bolts):

80ft lbs with moly, 120ft lbs with regular 30wt oil. Here's a scan:

Attachment 3865

I'll look to see if I have one for bolts lying around when I have the time and think on it.

Now if you're saying 115ft lbs when using oil you need to specify; ARP bolts come with much better lube and as such if someone doesn't understand and torques to that level they will destroy the fasteners and risk damaging the head.

Yeah, I thought studs were 90 too... I'll look for another instal sheet for studs, this one was posted by another MKIII owner and he says it's from his kit.

Hey everyone sorry to be out of touch for a bit, I've got good news the kid finally got the car! After a week and a half of playing ipsy f*in diddly switch with the previous owner. The prev owner wanted to "be fair" and give the 2 people who called before him a chance at the car even though he had cash in hand to buy it. The 1st didnt want it and the 2nd needed "time to get the $ together" and the a$$ held it for him. WHAT a suprise he ended up backing out of the deal. Fortunately the kid took my advice and shot him an offer of 2/3 the asking price and they settled on about $250 less for the car. He's got it home and is gonna start tearing it apart and hopefully wait till I get up there in a few weeks to put it back together. Despite all the great info I've obtained here, he's got this friend that "knows everything" about cars and is trying to convince him to simply slap a gasket on it without sending the head off to the shop 1st. I've done that a few times in the past on my 2.2 Mopars, sometimes I got lucky, sometimes not. But from what I've learned here you cant do that with the 3.0 head and expect it to work. He's been trying to give me the excuse (and it's a sound principle) that if too much material is removed from the head it'll throw the cam timing off. Told him even if it were planed that far there are ways to compensate for it, head shim + neat-o shiney go-fast adjustable cam gears, lol In your experience at what point would a head shim be neceassary to restore proper cam timing? Would you guys advise for, or against a shim altogether? Also I'd want to chase the threads before installing the head bolts, what is the thread pitch? He's not going to mod the car at all, so we'll be going with a composite gasket, which manufacturers would you recommend/avoid? Same for the timing belt, which should I go for or stay away from? thanks again for all the responses, I've got great deal of info on here! :bigthumb:

if the shop needs to take that much material off, your in better shape buying a new car.. its always a good idea to clean up any mating surface when putting new parts on your car. especially the head gasket.
as for materials I just usually get OEM w/e I find is the cheapest from the different oem vendors I resource around the net and locally.

ill drop the links here in a minute.
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I just dropped my part store bookmark folder.. lol have fun.

Ok back form the dead! It took months but he took it all apart, had the head planed (per the recommendations here and thankfully against the advice of his dipshit friend) put it all back together and has it running! My only gripe is he used an MLS gasket when a composite would have been in order but so far so good and no leaks. However he is having a few troubles with the car, from what I've been told it acts as if its hitting fuel cutout. I set the turbo up so that there is NO controller, no solenoid or anything between the boost/vacuum nipple and the wastegate. So maybe it hits 4-5 psi max, no way it makes nearly enough to trip any comptuer programmed shutdown. He says that when it does this the check engine light flashes and shuts off. He thinks it may be fuel related, Im not sure but I want to check a few things including fuel pressure. My questions are what is static pressure supposed to be? Where do you connect a pressure tester? How do you retrieve codes from this car, and where can I find a list of fault code discriptions? Is the fuel pressure adjustable with stock components? He says there appears to be a knob on what he says is the regulator on the rail that hes played with. Any ideas are greatly appreciated
Thanks in Advance
Chris

Oh goodie.... There's always someone who just KNOWS they're going to be the exception to the rule. The 7M wasn't smooth enough for a MLS NEW from the factory! Why do people think it somehow must've gotten both smoother and flatter after 20 YEARS or service?! Good luck with that one. ROFL. Maybe you'll get lucky, but you're really probably going to be screwed in a year or less.

See the MKIII FAQ section for a thread on diagnostic/error codes. The problem sounds like either a bad airflow meter or serious boost leak. I hope he didn't try to clean the AFM.

There is NOTHING on the stock fuel rail that is adjustable... The Fuel Pulsation Damper (FPD, looks like a second FPR with a plastic cover) has a screw which is preset at the factory or a certain response time and pressure but it isn't to be touched under any circumstances (it's even covered in certain Toyota publications)... Touch it and trash it is the jist of it (really there are worse things to screw up with but you'll never know what it should be set to or how to do it Toyota doesn't publish that info that I've ever found).

Yeah I was real disappointed when I head an MLS went on, especially after I STRESSED that a composite be used. I saw the damper on the end of the rail but he was stating this was towards the middle of the rail, it's been a while since I had my hands on the car and I dont remember what was there. Thanks for the tip Ilook there and see what I can find:dance:

Nah, there's nothing in the middle of the rail really.... The cold start injector is in the manifold beneath it...

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...spx?F=2211&P=2

Do you know which brand and which type of MLS was installed? (If you say HKS stopper, forgive my laughter... and start saving to replace it in a couple weeks.)