7mge build with some questions.
 

hey everyone, new here, looking for some info/input. now, first off, no i dont own a supra anymore. used to have an 89 turbo in high school, but have since gone thru several other cars. currently i have an 87 toyota 4x4 pickup, that is what the 7mge im building is going in. these arent swap specific questions, just motor questions.

first off, ill give you a parts list so you know what im working with.

bored/honed/decked jdm block- .50mm (.020) over
PnP/milled jdm head
comp valve springs
BC 268 cams (stage 2)
adj. cam gears
NPR pistons, rings (.020) over, balanced
eagle H beam rods, balanced
polished crank, balanced
king main/rod bearings
header (hey, was free :dunno:)
ATI damper
about 9.4-9.5 compression
stage 2 6 puck clutch kit

will have rebuilt w56 with 4.10's running 32" tires with a locked rear.

now i know not everyone is a fan of the GE, but please dont flame me saying i should get a turbo. ive done a crap load of research already and used the search function here and gotten some good info. the reason i dont have a turbo, is because i picked up this entire drive train originally for 100 bux (motor, tranny, harness, ecu and various other parts) not to mention a complete spare motor out of a 90 cressida, with harness, for 85 dollars.

i want to get into an EMS but i cannot find one for the GE, ive checked megasquirt and AEM and they both only offer for the GTE as ive seen.

heres where im gonna get ripped.. i have a custom supercharger setup (that i built, yes i can hear you all laughing) for my old 91 firbird formula w/ a 305. this kit can be adjusted with my pulleys to put out 5, 8 or 10 psi. i plan on putting this on the GE down the road running 5 psi to start, mounted where the AC was and running it thru an intercooler.

my question is, should i (can i rather) convert this all too GTE electronics, get the AEM ems and run it N/A till i finish fabbing the supercharger brackets, then tune it to run with the supercharger? AEM has told me they dont make an EMS for the GE, megasquirt wont pickup, email back etc.

the only other option i can think of is getting an apexi NEO, but i dont think that will allow enough tuning, especially with the cams and all. i wont be tuning for peak hp (not my style) as im an "under the curve/average hp" kinda guy. ive built quite a few engines, mostly carbed, but this is the first time ive considered an aftermarket ems, and the more advanced import build ive done.

i have about 3k into the motor so far, and can go about another 2-2.5k, but hope i wont have to do that much. if i can get the AEM ems to work with the GE electronics or even convert to GTE, i know where i can get the AEM for 500 bux. if not i can get the neo for 150 and hope for the best.

neway, hit me up with any kind of info you got, i appreciate it. and please, dont just flame me saying "go turbo!" ive decided to do the supercharger, cuz its unique and i like the power curve it gives me.

thanks!:)

all that is pretty useless for a 7mge. 7mgte is the way to go. turbo baby

Way to go, Green.:frown:

I'm not 100% sure on this, but you should be able to run the AEM with the GE if you run all GTE electronics on the engine.

lol oops.
:rofl2:

walks away in shame..
well in my defense it wasnt a flame. I just read the first part thinking its some kid who dosnt know crap and yadda yadda you know the rest.
but actually reading the post. pretty intelligent.. my fault.

I don't know about the AEM, but if that doesn't pan out I'd look into the MAFT Pro.

green, apology accepted. not a "kid" but not an old man either. been into engines for about 10 years, just always stuck with a "tune by screw driver" carb setup, except for the turbo 93 altima i had (jim wolf ecu retune).

anyway, i havent checked maftpro yet, ill look into that, im gonna call AEM again today as well as APEXi, see if they say anything promising about swapping to gte electronics. everyone said that the turbo electronics wont run in N/A form. i dont see why, its would just run out of boost for the time being, and in my mind, probably be more efficient due to the multi coil design, full electronic timing control, etc. combine that with the AEM tuning capability (or maftpro) and i think i may be able to at least get it running decent, till the S/C goes on.

i have to get the motor in the bay and see how i can mount the S/C, its a lil tight but i think ill have enough room in the ac position, if i make the custom brackets and remove the stock one. im going to try to retain the stock bracket, but may come to down to a bust.

neway, ill be able to use the extra block to fit it all too once i can get some measurements.

so im guessing the consensus is: SAFC Neo is out (not enough capability), AEM is possible if i can swap to gte electronics, and maftpro is worth looking at/talking to someone about.

any other comments? sorry if i had a digi cam id take some pics and my damn celly camera broke 2 months ago (run over in parking lot) :squint:

once again, thanks for any comments, aside from "go turbo" ones, haha.:)

My friend with a 84 Toy pickup has a 7MGTE in it, and you're right; it's a tight fit.

You can run a GE on GTE electronics. GTE uses higher flow injectors, and the computer is obviously expecting to see boost at some point, so fuel curves might be off. But since you're thinking of running a standalone AEM, you should be able to tune out the differences for now and adjust accordingly once you get the S/C on it. So I don't think you'd have a problem (this is purely speculation on my part, but it makes sense to me)

bt, thanks for the reply, and after looking at some options, the aem is a good system, but id have to get so much other stuff and still end up using the turbo afm. i did some more searching, and talked to a couple buddies round the spokane area. one of which used to build high hp supras and make alot of HP parts for them back in the early-mid 90's. he now makes M and JZ powered buggies and 4x4 trucks.

he suggested going with an SDS (simple digital systems) EFI system which he has used since the early 90s with great results. i checked it out, the EM-4 6F eliminates the afm, running a MAP system. comes complete and the wiring harness only has like 8 wires. tunes with a handheld and can handle up to 30 psi (3 stages: 15, 20 and 30 psi) also runs 3, dual point coil pack system.

looks like a legit system, much more complete than the aem, although it is 1700 bux. ill have to make a crank sensor setup, but my buddy said hed help with that and its not too hard.

prolly will go with this, as it will be easy to tune and it also offers on the fly adjustment. with this in the n/a version, i should see around 200-220 rwhp, and about 185-190 with 4wd. after the super charger, at 5 psi i figure a 20% increase (on my firebird it was 30%) so 230-260ish. 7-8 psi pulley will probably yield the best drivability to power ratio. if i wanna go to drag nights ill toss the 10psi pulley on and get close to 300.

neway, i believe this system comes with everything i need besides injectors (some stock gte ones should be fine under boost) the map sensor, knock sensor, and a couple other small things.

if anyone has had experience with this hit me up.

heres the link to their site: http://www.sdsefi.com/specific.html

The GE also uses a very different timing map... also, the big difference in base fuel maps means you'll be pulling a lot of fuel which means the ECU will be trying to add large amounts as it thinks you're getting less air than the map was tuned for. Stand alone or a piggyback which provides more flexibility than just an SAFC or NEO are the best solutions.... with a piggyback timing control is a must (or add an MSD 6 to the mix). The GTE AEM with the rest of the GTE electronics swapped over would be fine as well but you'll be doing a little more work getting a base tune setup as you're less likely to find someone else whose don it to copy from.

MAFT Pro is a piggyback which offers timing control, MAP/IAT (aka speed density), Boost control, AFR tracking (must also add a wideband like the LC-1 to use this feature).

I've heard of SDS (known of them for a long time), but I've never known anyone who's run one... most of the people I talk to are either very old school or young and think that system is too old school and limited. If their support is good and you can find an existing user base to talk to when you run into problems, then go for it and let us know how it work out. It appears that it can't be connected to a laptop for data logging and programming... this is a serious negative in my book. The small two line black and white LCD won't give you a graph of a chosen value so you can catch the small hiccups... It won't let you review the data from several sensors side by side on a scalable timeline... That's a deal breaker in my book.

Are you looking for easy or cheap? :D

Screwdrivers to tune a carb? Wow you're old. ;)

haha, ok no that old, mid 20's. usually thats all i ever needed, bit driver, a wrench, and some noodling. squeezed out 400+ hp out of my home built 9.5:1 350 sbc. tuned it myself and spend 75 bux for two dyno runs, first one hit 389 at 5600, second one hit 402 at 5900.

yea having a graphable set for sensor side by side would be nice, but im looking for easy/functional. they seem to have a great customer base and awesome feedback, as well as alot of vehicles (planes, boats, cars, trucks and motorsports) that hold some impressive records using their tuning.

i did just read through their tech article and they now offer data logging on their systems, downloadable thru the tuner hooked to computer. but nothing that is instantly graphable on the tuning pad. i looks like a great system to me.

i will be calling them tomorrow to ask a few questions, but im fairly set on that system after researching it. simple enough for me and its an improvement over the stock system. figure ill spend about 1800-2000 for the system and a knock sensor, 2 bar map sensor etc. so far i have a shopping list up to 3700, but i may knock a couple things off that i dont really need.

neway, ill try to get some pics up of the build soon, and if anyone has anymore comments id be happy to hear them.

thanks for your input cre and bt. guess when i get it done im off to the dyno, ill be sure to snag some numbers for you in N/A and SC form when i can.:offwall:

That'd be great, this forum needs some concrete numbers when it comes to what you can and can not accomplish with N/A tuning. And S/C, well, doubt anybody here does that so that info would be great to have to

mind you, wont be for at least a couple months lotta work left to do. and they prolly wont be amazing numbers cuz of the big tires, but we will see. be nice to be one of the first to get get some real numbers out of this, so everyone can see what can be done with these motors.

seen way too many questions and not enough doing. i feel confident i can get into the lower-mid 200s with the n/a. SC version, who knows. may top 300 depending on the pulley and tune

I have always dreamed of a SC Supra MKIII.. :yum: So rare and tasty.. Better than chocolate!! BETTER THAN SEXX...:umno: Haha.. "Stop looking at me swan!!"

ha, donno bout better. and unfortunately it wont be in a MKIII :cool:

What are you building the truck for, on road or off?

it was my daily driver, so it will continue that duty, but ill take it off road occasionally, and if the SC setup proves worthy, ill try it all the strip here, see what it can do while still being nice too it.

basically its an all around. i have two other cars, but i love driving my truck :D

ok, sorry its been a bit since an update. im waiting on funds to come in for the rest of my parts, so ive taken that time to clean the engine bay and prep it for paint, and get some of the unnecessary wires, hoses, etc out of there, and change the batt cables to the other side (ill run a dual batt anyway, but this makes the alternator wiring easier for me)

other than that, im fabbing up my fuel pump mount on the tank, and getting my custom rear sump pan drawn up. ill try and get pics up soon, gonna snag a camera or get a new fone soon as i get the afor mentioned funds. so basically ull get to see all the new parts and process then.

cheers!:x:

pics n such
 

finally got some pics uploaded to my facebook account from my buddy and my old fone. sorry theres alot, and i cant figure out how to upload them here. i should have an open view account so go ahead and check them out.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?id...231&aid=246719

lemme know if theres any trouble, thanks, enjoy!

small update
 

hey all, its been a while yet again. had a few setbacks recently that have affected my budget kinda seriously. had to help my sister and bro-in-law fix their 4runner, blew the hg and they drove on it for bout 220 miles. roasted the poor lil 22r. as they are pretty much outta cash, i offered to postpone my project a while to help pay for a new motor. now they are up and running again, but sadly i had to sell the cams i bought and hold off on a few other essential parts for a while.

anyway, aside from that new, i feel good overall about the project. i finally found some 5m mounts, and have an extra set in fact. got the cyl head assembled and the short block put together. the head has the comp cam springs, and at install height they are providing 64lbs of seat pressure. up from stock but not over done. the bearing clearances came out suprisingly well on my main and rod journals, they are as follows: main journals; 1-.0021", 2-.0019", 3-.0019", 4-.0020", 5-.0021", 6-.0019", 7-.0021". rod journals; 1-.0017", 2-.0017", 3-.0016", 4-.0017", 5-.0016", 6-.0018".

the mains i could swap halves around and maybe close up the couple .0021" ones and make the majority .0020", but i think 2 ten thousandths is pretty damn close. same on the rod journals. im just hoping the slight lenience on the #6 rod journal combined with teh slack #7 main journal dont translate into a problem down the road.

my pistons are protruding .0024" above the deck, so with the MHG i should be hitting around 9.7-9.9 comp approx. i was dissappointed a bit, cuz i picked up an extra 90 cressida motor, and after disassembling it, i looked at the pistons from both it and the jdm motor compared to my new pistons. the old pistons have only approx 1/16th dish compared to my new pistons 1/8th dish. mine are stock compression, 9.2:1, so im wondering what the old pistons would have yielded. im thinking stock 9.5-9.6:1. tho after searching i found no company (nor could my machine shop) that makes a pistons for the 7mge with that small of a dish, unless custom ordered (eff that). oh well :(.

anyway, ill be using the stock cressida cams, they looked wonderful, and just reshimming the head i have.

ordering efi in a couple weeks, and just have a few small parts to get now. the oil pan is designed, and ill be gettin sheet metal this week to build it. it should hold about 5-5.5 qts. i may add some capacity after i get the motor/tranny in and get some real concrete measurements. i really want to have about 6 qts capacity. other than that all i need is a couple stock sensors (gonna use the stock 22r temp sensor for the guage so it reads right) and cam gears and my rad to complete fab. all my parts are painted up with aluminum high temp ceramic paint, and my header is blasted, painted and ready to be wrapped. i still expect a solid 200 hp out of this motor w/o the cams, and i may upgrade to them down the road. also the supercharger idea is still in effect, just going to wait till the truck is drivable till i start on that end.

also, moving soon is another road block, but im crossing those bridges while i get to them. im not sure if anyone has seen pictures yet, but if i need a host site to post them for you guys, lemme know, ill try to get something worked up. if the FB post above works, then all the pics are on there, check em out and lemme know what you think back here! thanks, ill keep updating when i can!:bigthumb:

well, some more updates. i got my hks MHG, Cam gears, cam cover, rad and a few misc parts ordered. i also picked up a billet rear spool from a buddy of mine (free, thanks john!) and all the misc sensors and parts i needed. the motor will be dropped in on two weeks. the sds efi is on the waiting list. the oil pan is waiting final measurements when the motor is in.

on the off side ( i know this isnt a 4x4 forum, but its kewl nonetheless.) i went to the local pull n save yard, and found a few dirt cheap goodies. first off, an 83 celica throttle cable that will work perfect for this particular swap (7mge in pickup/4runner). i also happened to find, a mint eaton m90 supercharger (the price was literally, amazing. $17 bux) i have since found an adapter plate from a company that allows simple adaptation to intercooler/intake piping. so, instead of my centrifugal from my firebird, ill use this one, especially since it has the bypass valve. i will mount it where the A/C pump was, after i get the engine broke in.

in addition to this, i found a York A/C pump, from an 80's volvo. i will use this for OBA (on board air) as it is a far superior design to any other a/c pump. this was also, $17. to give everyone an idea of how much i scored, these pieces were $250+ anywhere else. so i essentially saved $450 on some kick ass parts. i will rebuild and port the S/C, and refurbish the A/C compressor. ill have about $150 into that.

once again, sorry its for a 4x4, but the S/C find really lit a fire under my ass. basically, the m90 puts out 90 CFM/ 1.5L of air per revolution, so in .5 revolutions of the crank shaft, ill fill each cylinder completely (by mathematics.) this should push my motor, into around the 275-300 hp range, depending on tuning. i should be able to have the efi ordered by the beginning of june, and the truck running by the end of that, including dyno tuning. so get read for N/A numbers by mid june, and S/C numbers by mid july.

im also ditching the 6 puck ceramic clutch, and getting an exedy hd kit from my freind john (yet again, thanks!) to help with drive train shock and drivability.

after all this, anyone got prospectives on 1/4 mile times? im thinking around low 13's.

ill prolly be upgrading to a R series trans soon, as the W series will surely detonate not long after the supercharger add-on. its taking alot longer than i wanted, but this will prolly be one of the funnest and most unique vehicles many have seen, cuz i believe ill be one of the first ppl to achieve the supercharged version (7MGZE!) in running form:x:

as stated b4, im also moving soon so that may impact progress some, but i accounted for that in my due dates. if anyone has questions, please ask!

and idk if anyone has seen pics at all, and im unsure how to post them up here, but id really like all to see them. ill see if i can get that figured out tonight. anyway, for any followers, keep checking, ill be posting progress soon.

pics!
 

http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/...albums198.html

heres the album i made on here. check it out, lemme know what you think. thanks!

http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/...picture991.jpg


epic! ..........

yea, thought that was pretty ingenious, but hell it worked awesome! ill actually be using it again to clean the SC housing and TB. gonna do a full rebuild on it and PnP it, might put a short snout on it and put a smaller pulley on it.

news today; figured out what my real compression ratio is! 10.01:1 was a lil much i figured, especially for the minimal work that was done.

so i CC'd my head today, and found the chambers ranged from 38.5-39 cc's. my head was milled .008", id figure the original size was about 40 cc's.

so with everything else, my static compression is coming in at 9.52:1. much more appropriate. i should be able to run 5-7 psi without a problem and put down a solid 260-ish at full boost i think. luckily with this S/C i dont have to run a BOV, do to the internal bypass valve. really its an ingenious design.

i figure my pistons will live for about a year if im decent too em, so i plan to get another short block, and build it for boost. shot peened rods, probably forged pistons...might look into that stroker setup, seems iffy. but hell, one more thing that noone ever finished! also, with that setup, i would definitely have the cams, and up the boost. have been looking for a beefier transmission as well, cuz god knows the w56 wont hold to more that 250 for long at all.

neway, sorry to bore you guys all with my 4x4 talk. but frankly all the 4x4 boards ive been to kinda suck...everyone gets pissy to easy. must be all the unfinished projects...just kidding! :grinking:

Hope you may enjoy it...

well, i have to fore-go the SDS. i wanted that efi really bad, but i cannot afford it. sooo... megasquirt it is, along with ford EDIS. ill get MSII v3.0 with the relay board, 12ft harness, relay cable and the db9 cord to go to my laptop for under 500 bux. then i just have to assemble the boards and tune it.

found out the local tech college here will let me use the dyno for dirt cheap (maybe free) so i can take a day to tune this thing for some decent power. i will still do an NA dyno first, to give everyone some numbers.

prolly be a couple months till i get the SC setup finished, then ill post some more dyno numbers.

as a build update, i ordered a new clutch from F1 racing, read alot of reviews and the stage 2 carbo kevlar one seemed best for my needs, plus at 150 shipped it was a good deal. also got my hks 1.2mm MHG ordered, so now i can finish assembling the long block.

anyone got a recommendation on spark plugs to use?

got my new HKS head gasket and F1 stage 2 clutch. should have the long block together and mated to the transmission, then in the truck soon!

ok well plans have changed again. was going to run an NA block with stock type pistons, but i found a really good deal on some forged pistons from Probe Industries here.

so i will be pulling my new stock type pistons out, and putting in a set of these. run them na while i rebuild the supercharger and get the brackets made for it.

i figured 460 delivered for a set of forged pistons is a pretty good deal, and probe has a pretty good rep.

lemme know if anyones got some opinions on this.

sigh, its not much of an update, but i figured id keep ppl informed if they are checking in.

finally uploaded some pictures of my oil pan design, they are in the album. basically just needing the time to work on everything, should be steady soon so i can get things together.

new job starts next month, means more money, means more parts!

neway, neone got any questions or suggestions im open.

Hang in there man. It'll happen.
What are you building? A Dakar rally truck? Looks like it with all that engine work. This is how I picture your truck.
http://image.off-roadweb.com/f/96520...tching_air.jpg

Hmm...supercharged cammed stroker 7m pre-runner. DO IT!

haha, no not a dakar truck, although im building this thing to be super reliable. im just thorough and want a big bang for my buck...while being different lol.

that pic link is dirty, i wish my truck had that kinda suspension travel!

thanks for the support man!

and it continues!

finally got time to work on the motor, finished up the long block assembly, including the cam installs (all went smoothly, and i wont have to re-shim at all, sweet), cylinder head install (head studs were a bitch either way i tried to put them in) and cleaning/painting up a few parts.

going to california for a couple weeks to do some carpentry for some family, when i come back ill be picking up a good portion of the parts to finish things. namely the cam gears and sheet metal for the oil pan, the megasquirt and radiator, various sensors and small parts.

ill have to install the engine and tranny, check the pan designs clearance, then weld the pan up, make the oil pickup, wrap the header, weld up an exhaust (got some new tools for that, yeah), assemble MS, mount the rad, plumb everything, and then make sure it runs, baseline tune it, break it in etc.

while doing all that, ill be rebuilding the M90, fabbing mounting brackets and braizing an intake adapter, making my new bumper and finding a place to mount and route the intercooler.

then i can take a breather and drink a damn beer...

hopefully sometime this fall, ill have N/A dyno sheets up, then im thinking (depending on how long fabbing takes) supercharged numbers around after holiday season or early next year.

all the while, ill still be painting the truck, redoing the interior, and a handfull of other things.

its a good think i love doing this.

aside from all this, ive been rebuilding my freinds POS 420a for his eclipse so he can sell it, helping my other room mate go through his datsun 510 and prepping it for a vg30de/install, AND helping the first room mate fix his OTHER POS dodge pickup (to sell as well)...not to mention the 15 other fone calls i get every week to help other ppl put their cars together....

i feel like butter, scraped over too much bread....PEACE!

P.S.- new pics in the album of the mostly assembled motor, check em out, lemme know what you think.

things have been going slow. wasnt able to purchase any parts after cali, go figure. just had too much other pending stuff to take care of.

good news is: am enrolled in tech school and start classes this january. financial aid is basically covering my tuition, living expenses plus more. so thats how the truck is getting finished. turns out being broke has its advantages!

anyway, should be some updates in the next couple months, i plan on it being at least drivable by february.

plan is still the same, stay tuned for more updates and pics!

this is still an ongoing build, its not dead, just on hiatus. lotta passion left to finish this thing, and im hoping to get more done in the next year. i doubt many have kept up on this, but i figured id let everyone know the quest for this build to finish is still there.

its hard when i make no money, but its still on going. locked up in my shop at the moment, with a list of stuff to finish it still on going.

the supercharger is still in the works. just keep faith all, as i have. its a long and arduous journey but im persevering.

ill update with some pics soon, im pretty active on dsm tuners with the talon coming along, and as soon as thats done, ill start on the truck again.

miss this forum alot, and hope to get it some more traffic soon!

Henry.

bump! I wanna see a 7mgze!

Bump! I want to know if this route you're taking is working or worth while.