Valve Head Noise LOUD TAPPING
 

Hey Guys I know I am posting a lot please forgive me but I have all these Supras and that means all these problems. I have a video I made for you up on you tube, You guys Rock so let me know what you think this noise is OK?
The car is a black 87 N/A Auto No Mods about 170k on it. It started running sluggish and missing a bit when this noise started. I have driven it maybe 10 miles since this noise started. I have been told that it might be a rocker backing off or something broken in there. Thanks so Much!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hEYr-V4jQ

That could very well be rod knock or a valve problem. The one thing I do know is that is has no rockers since it is a Dual Overhead Cam Motor. Here is the valves and cams diagram....


http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...spx?F=1302&P=1

Head problem
 

Could it be the adjustment has come loose? I hope I don't find a rock in there or something my ex through in the motor. Hmmm, Maybe the car jumped time and the valve is slapping out of time?

Doesn't sound like rod knock. There is also no adjusting to be done with the stock lifters. The only thing to adjust valve lash is with shims. It kind of sounds like an electrical arc. You should try and replace the plug wires, one might be cracked and arcing on to the head. Also I doubt that it jumped time I've never heard of it happening to anyone on these engines. To check timing set your crank to 0 deg btdc on compression stroke pull your camgear cover off and make sure both the stamped lines on the cam gears are pointing straight up. Then to make sure get a timing light and make sure your timing is at 10 deg btdc.

I am so stupid
 

I have to do research just to keep up with your responses. If it is arcing I should be able to see it in the dark correct? I agree I don't think it would idle so well if it jumped time, It will take me some time to figure out the other parts you spoke of. You think that sound is an arc? Wow what a concept! I saw a post about lining up the cam gear. Now if I can figure out where that is on the engine. If I have let this car sit so long because of a bad plug wire I am going to cry.... Thanks so much!

to see the timing marks on the cam gears you take the panel off of the front of the engine that says 7m-ge. I actually just recently put a new engine in my jeep and it has coil on plug and its a little tricky to get on. So i put it on and thought it was on all 6 plugs so i started it up and it was idling shitty and had a miss and was making a loud arcing sound so i looked a little closer and realized the boot wasn't on the sixth sparkplug stuck it on and it ran perfect. As for seeing it in the dark I don't know if you would see it or not its worth a try.

Cam Gear
 

Oh Ok yeah I know the cam gears now I was thinking of something else. Yeah, I did the timing belt on this car I can't remember how long before the problem started thats why I thought maybe it had jumped. It was running real rough, I think the plug wires I just found I bought back then but when I went to do the job I was discouraged because of the intake and how you have to remove it to get the plug wires run correctly. No way to feed those through I saw with the upper plenum on. That thing must be cake to take off though. I was thinking of a thread about the fuel cam sensor. Where is that on the car? ....? Thanks so much for your help! Hey wait a minute all you have to do is slip the rubber head off the distributer side of the plug wire and feed them through. I am a dumb ass.... like Popeye would say ...."Garshked!" lol

its not just valve tap or lifters and your timing won't cause a noise just a rough idle or sluggish condition it really sounds like you broke a valve spring but only one since it is a very slow tick sound were you revving it when this noise first developed and does it become less apparent or more when you rev? also i dont think your ignition timing would cause this without ALOT of other signals (hard slow start, overheating, cracking pistons, and alot faster noise) but imho it is a broken valve spring you should pull the valve covers and check them its not that hard of a job just remove intake where it splits and take off the valve covers the wires can stay in and everything

basic rule is a noise at half engine speed is valve noise or cam noise
full engine speed is ignition sound "arcing" or rod/main detonation etc.

Ok
 

I will have to see if it gets less with high revs. Would this damage the cam all this slapping? Can the spring be replaced with the heads on? Thanks, Scott

that's making quite the ruckus. lol =D anyways somthing is definitly wront in the valve train and also definitly not a rod knock.

removing Valve covers
 

I am trying to get the valve covers off. I am trying to remove the upper plenum, I think it is called. How do you get to those lower bolts that go into the manifold? There are some electrical structures there and in the center that I am not sure how best to remopve will post pics later tonight. Thanks

I uploaded a video with questions. Thanks,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-grOEjS-DU

The front electrical connection to the round canister on the side of the throttle body is the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). You don't need to remove it, just unplug it. To get to the two lower bolts on the "Y" pipe (as it is commonly called) you need to remove the two black metal brackets and then use two extensions to reach them. An extension with a "wobble" built in helps get a better grip.

The part they're saying to pop off with a screw driver is the rod which runs up the the throttle pulley/lever on the side of the throttle body.

While you've got the throttle body off, might as well go ahead and check that the TPS is properly adjusted too: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...ction=FI&P=100


Yes, you can replace a spring with the head still on the engine. Pull all the spark plugs, remove the cam, remove the bucket and shim of the bad valve, disconnect the battery and remove the EFI fuse. Now rotate the crank until the piston of the cylinder with the bad valve spring is all the way at the bottom. Start feeding in some very soft and VERY long rope through the spark plug hole. Once you've got a good amount in there and can't feed in any more rotate the crank again while someone pulls on the bad valve's stem lightly. This rope will push the valve up and closed and with enough pressure that you'll be able to do the tapping needed to free the keepers. When you're done you just back the crank off and pull the rope out.

Okay, third post in a row... I should have just watched the video all the way through to begin with... :P

I've posted a link to the info on the first electrical part you asked about already (the TPS), the second one is the ISCV (Idle Speed Control Valve, or just ISC). You can leave it on to pull the valve covers, but you may want the extra room. There are two bolts connecting it to the upper plenum, leave the screws alone. There are also two small coolant hoses connected to it, one on top and another down below that's harder to see.

The electrical connector between the Y pipe's branches is the cold start injector. You do not need to worry about disconnecting or removing this.

If you have trouble getting the TPS connector off use a small screw driver to pop the rectangle of spring steel wrapped around it off and it'll pull away more freely.

Thanks Cre
 

I am trying to take in your posts. The valve problem is on the Black Supra and the Dead stick or don't run after test drive is the red one.

Not having much luck with the red one, drained all the gas, put in fresh gas, changed 3 of the plugs because of the throttle body being in the way. Went to pull plug number 5 as you go back the engine. Its the nest to the last one that you have to use a wobble on or take that T shaped pipe off to reach.

I couldn't get a plug wrench on it no matter what I did so I took a flashlight crawled up in the engine bay and looked. The plug had rubber grommet all around it like a plug wrench rubber inset was trapped in there. I managed to dig it out with a flashlight and bent coat hanger in. Once I got a wrench on it I started to break it free but it does not want to come out. It turns with great effort so I am bumming here thinking that I have a stripped plug in the head. I didn't want to force it out and not be able to get another in so I left it there. Any ideas on what might be up with that plug? I hate to pull it out if it is cross threaded. I am better off leaving it in if this is the case and one plug won't stop it from starting.

Anyway, the Red Supra still will not start. I don't think I am getting any gas to the plugs. How do you test the fuel pump without replacing cause that cost over $170 and I would rather test it than spend the money and the time if it is not bad. I guess it could be the filter that is some $40.00 to buy but then again more money out the window and this thing might have a serious problem. I would have to pull the throttle body on this red one to do a compression test I guess I could do a test on 3 of the cylinders.

That rope trick sounds pretty cool. What are the keepers on the valve stem?
oK I found a you tube video for putting keepers on he talks about a special tool to push them in place do I need this special tool? Can it be done with a socket and hammer? I just called autozone they say they have a compression tester I can borrow tomorrow. What is the compression supposed to be around 140?

Also I find these plug wires problematic. I am having trouble getting the seated solidly on the plugs. I can't tell if their snapped in or not. Is there a trick to these as well? Also I am still confused about whether or not I should be able to hear the fuel pump back at the tank when you first turn on the key. Could you clarify that for me knowing that my car is not Turbo?

Looking on ebay I see fuel pumps for as low as $35.00 why is there such a discrepency in price? What can I get away with using?

Thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i0Zz5ecqlo

Thanks so much for your help, Scott

I have the EXACT same noise comming from my 87 N/A Surpa, in the exact same place and everything. I have been able to localize the noise as happening exactly when the cams line up w/ the timing marks, and further more, the noise is a lot louder on the intake cam rather than the exhaust cam.

I'll agree with the broken valve spring theory, unfortantly, I haven't had the time to confirm this yet. CRE is correct on a way to replace the valve springs with the head on the car, however if you have access to compressed air, I have always put the piston of that cylinder on TDC of the compression stroke and put about 120 psi of pressure in that cylinder and thats enough to keep the valves closed while you replace the spring. You will need the "special tool" required to compress the spring while pulling the locks on the retainers, unless your extremely strong and fast at being able to push that valve spring down and pulling them. Good luck putting them back on w/ the latter method. In short, buy the tool.

In the next few weeks, I might pull my cams out and see which one is bad for the sake of doing it, but b/c I also have a hell of a rod knock, I'm probably just going to replace my engine w/ a 7M-GTE motor instead. Good luck though and I'll stay tuned to see what you come up with. If I happen to find the time to pull my cams out, I'll try to post pics for you.

Success!
 

Got the plenum off, must say it was easy except for those bottom manifold bolts the one closest to the windshield was a BEAR I nearly stripped it trying to get it off. My 6 sided 12 MM went into another dimension when I dropped it working on the bolt. Has not show up yet, not under the car and not seen in the engine bay. Don't you love it when you have to drop what you are doing and drive 40 minute round trip to go get another $4.00 12 mm socket? Damn I hate that but now that the Y assembly is free I am relieved. I can clean up in there now and pull the valve covers and see what is wrong in there. Here are a couple of nasty pics for ya just to keep it real. Thanks You guys, its like having a master mechanic with a flash light by your side when your groping in the dark. What do you do with all this crap and hoses in the way just tie it back? Yes Nailhead I will post what I find in there. It's been a long time a coming... I just feel soooo bad taking away the squirrels little clubhouse like this. Lots of half eaten nuts under the Plenum in there....Scott

Is this the valve tool I need? Its called the valvemaster its $85 on ebay right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFTaeu4GIPo

What did you find wrong? I have this same problem and just can't figure it out. I didn't have this problem until after I removed the engine for the flywheel and clutch and did a head gasket job while I was at it. Put everything back together and now I have the exact same noice in the exact same place. I already checked and adjusted my valve clearances and helicoiled my exhaust manifold, replaced injectors with Rc engineering while I was at it. I could really use some insight.

What was wrong
 

I don't know I fixed my 5 speed Supra first and haven't gotten to the Black one yet. People have suggested it is in need of valve shimm adjustment, suggested that putting an extra washer between the distributer bolt and the head fixed it. Or there is a broken valve spring.

I am not a betting man. However, I will put my money on rod knock.

christ I thought it was a pain in the arse to remove the valve covers on my turbo.. now im not really gonna complain seeing what you have to do. ill just shut up and take my 10 minutes worth of unbolting and be happy with it.

Others have said that it is definitely not rod knock. I'm leaning towards valve lash, bad valve spring, or something clogging one of the oil passages causing oil not to lubricate something due to the fact that I had no problems before doing a head job and I had the head off for three months sitting under a tarp before puttin it back on.

I'm just remembered that just before doing my head job I managed to suck up some water through my air intake and the engine died. I made sure to get the water out of my intercooler and started it back up and it ran ok, but now I am thinking that maybe this did some damage to the internals. I'm going to inspect for spun bearing and wear on the crank and connecting rods.

I've also started pricing JDM engines, specifically the 1jzgte. If I have to do an engine swap I might as well do a 1jz swap, right? If I do, I will have thousands of dollars of brand new parts on my 7mgte that have zero miles on them that will be available for sale.

I'm also considering selling it as is as I really need an imediate driver. There are many new parts installed and some not yet installed. If anyone is interested in something, let me know. That is going to help me make my decision about the engine swap.

Some of the new parts are listed below in my signiture, but I have more, just ask.

Water in a combustion chamber could have created a hydraulic lock, depending how much you pulled in. If that did happen, a bent rod is common damage from such an event.

my 7m was making that identical noise so i pulled the engine apart as part of my grade 12 mechanics project...........and ended up finding i had to get .030" taken off my con rod journals. that ticking sound is definitely a spun bearing somewhere in there

Its a rod. Mine sounded the same way but only right after it fired up it made the noise (just like yours) for maybe 1 second. On the break down of the engine it was all chewed up and had 2 bent valves

Our engines don't have pushrods, we've got dual overhead cams

sounds like lack of oil, my 200sx made that noise for a week before it seized solid.

Yeah, definitely sounds like a stuck or broken spring, although.. I have heard a spark arc that sounded like that (in the video). Its almost a metalic sound when it is wiring arcing, but an arc strong enough to make that noise would affect the engine (doubt that piston would fire).

I vote pull the valve covers.