is this possible??

CanadianBak'inSupra · 11-12-2009, 01:52 PM

what ways would you achieve a so called "45" HP gain??
and cheaper?

Krem · 11-12-2009, 05:13 PM

I don't know about 45 hp... I know NA's don't gain much more HP, at least not in comparison to a turbo... have you tried the cold air intake? cat back exhaust, maybe headers? These are what I've been looking at for my NA... but mainly cause I'm not sure of further upgrades for a smaller budget.

cre · 11-12-2009, 06:18 PM

When talking "cold air intake" let's clarify and add that a short pipe with a big fat cone filter in the engine bay is NOT beneficial... not unless you build a nice big box around the filter and feed the box air from outside the engine bay.

Also, while we're at it I'll add that the removal of the Helmholtz resonator is not beneficial. The resonator is not designed in such a way that it impairs the flow or air through the intake... in fact it helps it. For the same reason that it muffles sound it smooths the airflow: it eliminates turbulence.

Cat back, headers, different intake do make a difference, cams, tuning, porting and polishing make an even bigger one. Hitting 200 - 220 at the wheels with these mods shouldn't be too difficult, but getting much beyond that you're looking at more and more expensive engine work. My recommendation is to put together a list of mods which you'll be able to use on a turbo'd engine in the future, even if they don't make a big difference on your N/A.

Krem · 11-12-2009, 11:17 PM

damn, I guess I need to put a ram scoop on my front end then.. cause no way am I dropping the pipe to pull air from the bottom of the car... Las Vegas is not known for getting much rain, but it is known for flooding almost any time it does rain.. I always thought the alum. piping helped.. but figured the cone wasn't anything more than an air filter.. sad to hear there's no added benefit other than the throaty sound made.. well, till I get a ram scoop...

CanadianBak'inSupra · 11-13-2009, 12:55 AM

well for starters, i baught the car from a "good friend" and lets end at that.
engine was rebuilt 2 years ago, and HG and full top end rebuild was done 4 months ago for unknown reasons...

performance cat-converter and performance muffler, headers, and all new 2 & 1/2 inch piping(all done in last 2 years)

what is a "Helmholtz resonator"???

and ive been meaning to make a new air bow, for my cone filter with engine bay fed air is horrid...(missing stock airbox)

cre · 11-13-2009, 02:43 AM

The filter doesn't have to sit behind the fog light... that is too low. It should sit right under the headlight. This puts the top of the filter roughly level with the top of the bumper. The other option is to build a box where the stock air box was that is open where the stork air box pulled air from, the rest should be closed and preferably insulated. In all honesty, the N/A doesn't flow nearly enough air for the stock air box to pose any restriction, not even with a cheap, paper FRAM filter installed (which my the way filters MUCH better than half of the "performance" filters out there).

Aluminum piping is probably worse than the plastic and rubber arrangement, it allows heat from the engine bay to penetrate far more quickly than plastic, rubber or even steel. The trade off is that plastic, rubber and steel take longer to release the heat they absorb, but in their case it's released over a broader span of time. The only real way to get some good performance out of the intake piping is to insulate it very well, whether you wrap it with heat wrap (also known as exhaust wrap or tape) or get the piping ceramic coated. The performance difference with these things though is pretty small on the larger scale and really only affects performance after sitting idle for a minute or more. I really wouldn't sweat it.

If you're just dying for every little detail to be perfect, keep the resonator (paint it if you prefer), get the intake piping wrapped or coated and build an insulated air box or move the filter AND replace the corrugated rubber couplers in the intake piping with SMOOTH couplers. Also consider getting your exhaust manifold coated or wrapped as it will greatly reduce under the hood temps and improve exhaust flow.

As for the resonator; do you guys know what a sound wave looks like on the computer? Peaks and valleys. To put it VERY simply a helmholtz resonator reduces noise and turbulence in air flow by leveling out those valleys and thus removing turbulence. Now it is possible for the resonator to be built to dimensions which will have a negative effect, but Toyota spent a LOT of money on the math and testing of it before they put it in the car... otherwise I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have risked adding an unnecessary part that could result in a major performance hit. There are other types of mufflers used in automotive applications which are damaging to performance and the removal of these will definitely increase performance... much like exhaust mufflers, baffled intake mufflers are the worst... don't worry, your car doesn't have one.

Here read this: http://www.planetsoarer.com/resonator/resonator.html (Everyone read it! There WILL be a test!)

CanadianBak'inSupra · 11-13-2009, 03:05 AM

wow i actually picked one up about a monthy ago...
mine is replaced with a metal pipe (not sure what type but metal and thick)
it was replaced to make more room, (wasnt me baught it like this)
ill take out that shitty pipe tomarow...
thanks alot!
you must be the most knowledgeable person i have ever talked to about these cars thank you for being patient with my lack of knowledge

11-13-2009, 03:05 AM	#7
CanadianBak'inSupra Official hall monitor / search nazi - NO SOUP FOR YOU! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Canada, BC Posts: 837	wow i actually picked one up about a monthy ago... mine is replaced with a metal pipe (not sure what type but metal and thick) it was replaced to make more room, (wasnt me baught it like this) ill take out that shitty pipe tomarow... thanks alot! you must be the most knowledgeable person i have ever talked to about these cars thank you for being patient with my lack of knowledge Last edited by CanadianBak'inSupra; 11-13-2009 at 03:09 AM.

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11-12-2009, 01:52 PM	#1
CanadianBak'inSupra Official hall monitor / search nazi - NO SOUP FOR YOU! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Canada, BC Posts: 837	what ways would you achieve a so called "45" HP gain?? and cheaper?

11-12-2009, 05:13 PM	#2
Krem 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 167	I don't know about 45 hp... I know NA's don't gain much more HP, at least not in comparison to a turbo... have you tried the cold air intake? cat back exhaust, maybe headers? These are what I've been looking at for my NA... but mainly cause I'm not sure of further upgrades for a smaller budget.

11-12-2009, 06:18 PM	#3
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	When talking "cold air intake" let's clarify and add that a short pipe with a big fat cone filter in the engine bay is NOT beneficial... not unless you build a nice big box around the filter and feed the box air from outside the engine bay. Also, while we're at it I'll add that the removal of the Helmholtz resonator is not beneficial. The resonator is not designed in such a way that it impairs the flow or air through the intake... in fact it helps it. For the same reason that it muffles sound it smooths the airflow: it eliminates turbulence. Cat back, headers, different intake do make a difference, cams, tuning, porting and polishing make an even bigger one. Hitting 200 - 220 at the wheels with these mods shouldn't be too difficult, but getting much beyond that you're looking at more and more expensive engine work. My recommendation is to put together a list of mods which you'll be able to use on a turbo'd engine in the future, even if they don't make a big difference on your N/A.

11-12-2009, 11:17 PM	#4
Krem 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 167	damn, I guess I need to put a ram scoop on my front end then.. cause no way am I dropping the pipe to pull air from the bottom of the car... Las Vegas is not known for getting much rain, but it is known for flooding almost any time it does rain.. I always thought the alum. piping helped.. but figured the cone wasn't anything more than an air filter.. sad to hear there's no added benefit other than the throaty sound made.. well, till I get a ram scoop...

11-13-2009, 12:55 AM	#5
CanadianBak'inSupra Official hall monitor / search nazi - NO SOUP FOR YOU! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Canada, BC Posts: 837	well for starters, i baught the car from a "good friend" and lets end at that. engine was rebuilt 2 years ago, and HG and full top end rebuild was done 4 months ago for unknown reasons... performance cat-converter and performance muffler, headers, and all new 2 & 1/2 inch piping(all done in last 2 years) what is a "Helmholtz resonator"??? and ive been meaning to make a new air bow, for my cone filter with engine bay fed air is horrid...(missing stock airbox)

11-13-2009, 02:43 AM	#6
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	The filter doesn't have to sit behind the fog light... that is too low. It should sit right under the headlight. This puts the top of the filter roughly level with the top of the bumper. The other option is to build a box where the stock air box was that is open where the stork air box pulled air from, the rest should be closed and preferably insulated. In all honesty, the N/A doesn't flow nearly enough air for the stock air box to pose any restriction, not even with a cheap, paper FRAM filter installed (which my the way filters MUCH better than half of the "performance" filters out there). Aluminum piping is probably worse than the plastic and rubber arrangement, it allows heat from the engine bay to penetrate far more quickly than plastic, rubber or even steel. The trade off is that plastic, rubber and steel take longer to release the heat they absorb, but in their case it's released over a broader span of time. The only real way to get some good performance out of the intake piping is to insulate it very well, whether you wrap it with heat wrap (also known as exhaust wrap or tape) or get the piping ceramic coated. The performance difference with these things though is pretty small on the larger scale and really only affects performance after sitting idle for a minute or more. I really wouldn't sweat it. If you're just dying for every little detail to be perfect, keep the resonator (paint it if you prefer), get the intake piping wrapped or coated and build an insulated air box or move the filter AND replace the corrugated rubber couplers in the intake piping with SMOOTH couplers. Also consider getting your exhaust manifold coated or wrapped as it will greatly reduce under the hood temps and improve exhaust flow. As for the resonator; do you guys know what a sound wave looks like on the computer? Peaks and valleys. To put it VERY simply a helmholtz resonator reduces noise and turbulence in air flow by leveling out those valleys and thus removing turbulence. Now it is possible for the resonator to be built to dimensions which will have a negative effect, but Toyota spent a LOT of money on the math and testing of it before they put it in the car... otherwise I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have risked adding an unnecessary part that could result in a major performance hit. There are other types of mufflers used in automotive applications which are damaging to performance and the removal of these will definitely increase performance... much like exhaust mufflers, baffled intake mufflers are the worst... don't worry, your car doesn't have one. Here read this: http://www.planetsoarer.com/resonator/resonator.html (Everyone read it! There WILL be a test!)